I don't understand what you mean.
I also don't see any connection to Spain.
Even if the technology came to Italy from Spain.
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(27-01-2026, 06:03 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand what you mean. I also don't see any connection to Spain.
I mean only that the number of
paper mills in Germany in the 1400s is not a good measure of the use of
paper there. Because paper could be traded all over Europe.
(And we have no idea of where the Author was when wrote the
draft of the VMS. Almost surely somewhere in the T-O map, but we cannot be more specific than that. We only know that when the
Scribe drew the illustrations on the vellum version,
some of the books he copied from apparently were copies of German books.)
All the best, --stolfi
Quote:We only know that when the Scribe drew the illustrations on the vellum version
Not vellum, Jorge. Parchment
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And are you totally discounting BNF Fr. 565, Harley 334, MS M. 133, BNF Fr. 13096?
The source of VMs artistic information was not only well-traveled, but also well-informed of French sources as well as German. The Queen of France was German, Isabeau of Bavaria.
(27-01-2026, 09:16 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And are you totally discounting BNF Fr. 565, Harley 334, MS M. 133, BNF Fr. 13096?
Are you replying to me? I emphasized "some" precisely because the Scribe apparently copied from (copies of) non-German books as well. Like the
Balneis Puteolanis (Southern Italy), some book with pictures of castles with Ghibelline merlons (Northern Italy?) and possibly the
Alchemists Herbal (Northern Italy), etc.
And some book with onion-dome towers.
All the best, --stolfi
(27-01-2026, 08:25 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not vellum, Jorge. Parchment
I recall reading somewhere that the two words once had well-established meaning in English, with "vellum" being specifically calf skin. But more recently the two terms have become interchangeable in England (while still being distinguished in France, where the name "vellum" came from.)
If true, that is a bit peculiar, since technical terms usually become more specific with time. (See "planet" which, according to the IAU, now does not include Pluto and is distinct from "dwarf planet" and other obligatorily qualified types of "planet").
The nasty little demon behind my left ear says that it happened because some British "experts" who claimed to distinguish calf from lamb by sight were embarrassed when lab tests became available and revealed their mistakes.
But I try not to listen to that demon. Much. It is not good for one's reputation...
All the best, --stolfi
(27-01-2026, 01:11 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Paper may have been available, but yes, in the early fifteenth century it was not yet in common use and would have been more expensive than parchment.
Thanks, that changes some of the perspective. Though I am curious if that not also depends on the region.
When I think of the region, I think of the universities. Paper mills were certainly located near the big cities. In Austria, I would say there were two: Vienna and Salzburg. But tanners were everywhere, whether they worked with leather, fur or parchment.
I consider trade across the Alps around 1400 to be impossible. Passable for five months of the year on mule tracks on foot with pack donkeys. At the risk of not being able to return in the same year. See Via Claudia Augusta.
(28-01-2026, 07:29 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I consider trade across the Alps around 1400 to be impossible. Passable for five months of the year on mule tracks on foot with pack donkeys. At the risk of not being able to return in the same year. See Via Claudia Augusta.
Stuff with high price to weight ratio, like paper or wine, could be traded
around the Alps -- e. g. by ship through Marseille or Trieste, or by land along the coast.
Or by sending it through the Alpine passes in the Summer. On pack donkeys, yes. Why not? It would not have been a hundred tons of paper per month...
And paper (and paper making) was popular in France before it spread to Germany. It did not have to come from Italy.
Anyway, the point is that, wherever it was available, paper was cheaper than vellum. That is the
only reason why it spread to all of Europe, and replaced vellum. It is the
only reason why someone would choose to write anything on paper instead of vellum.
And large manuscript books on paper
were being produced in Switzerland and Germany in the early 1400s.
All the best, --stolfi
I have found something that might make me reconsider my views.
As early as the beginning of the 15th century, around 10,000 people and 9,000 pack animals crossed the pass every year. Although the summer months favoured traffic over the Gotthard, the winter months were more lucrative for the muleteers. In winter, they could use a sledge pulled by two oxen, which could carry up to 600 kilograms, four times as much as in summer. In 1500, around 170 tonnes of goods were transported over the Gotthard. The journey from Flüelen to Bellinzona took around 30 hours on foot.
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