The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: An interesting observation on Quire 13
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There is one serious consideration which seems to have been forgotten here.

If the scribe indeed went for the bifolio model, with the bifolios not to be bound on the folio-basis, then why does the text not follow this model and is put down as if the stuff needs to be bound on the folio basis?

There is a good example of f101, where the text flows across two adjacent folios of a tri-folio, both in the recto and verso sides.
I can appreciate why David posted here rather than on the Quire Tasks thread.

There's a difference between discussing observations and possibilities of what may have happened, and getting some feedback, and actually setting up a task for arranging the folios once some consensus (or expert opinion) has been reached.



There appears to have been intent to be a bound book in some sections. The first page is immediately followed by a series of plants and since a recto page is on the right (rather than "beginning" on the left) when the whole thing is viewed flat, the sense of it does not follow naturally unless it is folded and bound, so whoever designed it understood the concept of quires and intended some of the pages to be combined in a conventional way.


The larger pages have always been interesting to me. The way the large pages are arranged suggests to me that the creator cared more about the medium (in this case the size and organization of the medium) reflecting the message than many authors of the time.
Maybe , will help  understand the structure of  letter the additional  indexing of pages?
f68r1 ( ?a,q?), f68r2 (b), f68r3 ( c), f70r1 (a), f70r2 (b)
More on the question whether *all bifios* should be taken as a unit, rather than just Quire 13:
(not sure if that should be a separate thread).

I noted something along those lines, which Nick posted here:
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(I'm shocked it's already 6 years ago).

This could be a suggestion in favour of this idea, though it seems to be a lone example....
(01-04-2016, 06:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.More on the question whether *all bifios* should be taken as a unit, rather than just Quire 13:
(not sure if that should be a separate thread).

I noted something along those lines, which Nick posted here:
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(I'm shocked it's already 6 years ago).

This could be a suggestion in favour of this idea, though it seems to be a lone example....

I think it would help a lot if we could view the pages as if they were an unbound stack of vellum, and turn them sheet by sheet. Like that, either we'd have to conclude that there's probably nothing to the idea, or that some parts have been bound that should have remained unbound. Is their a way computer savvy people could arrange such a way of viewing the scans?
I think that sometimes disorder is merely a new order, to a different purpose. Of course, sometimes it is just disorder. Smile

Older manuscripts not rarely show signs of deliberate re-ordering in which case that  re-ordering, and the reason for it, is potentially an informative historical datum, one which would be lost or forgotten were the ordering 'corrected' to what we imagine the 'proper' order.

The quiration also speaks to assembly of the parts from one or more sources that had not formed a nicely ordered single volume.  

I find Sam's observations very interesting indeed in that context, and can think of numerous situations where separate bifolia would be practical.

 One, of course, would be the printer's workshop.  Another would be, say, a chart-maker's workshop, or the needs of a painter working on a great fresco.   In each case, as one section and then other were being worked on, only the small sheet (bifolium) relating to it would be needed.

A slightly different possibility might be that the new ordering (i.e. as bound in the 15thC)  reflects the sequential order of  a journey, with   information about roads (chiefly maritime, I'd say) and other matter taken from one or more prior sources being organised according to the user's journey-stages. I don't imagine what we have is a travel diary by one author, but a compilation made to a purpose.

However, from my point of view, the chief problems posed by the "roots and leaves" sections are first, that the layout is quite contrary to the habit of Latin Europeans during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, and second that the concertina-fold itself is so highly unusual for such  posited context.

The nearest I've seen to the horizontal layout among Latin European works are a couple of mercantile invoices and lists which write the item within a separate paragraph, and then illustrate it  in the same register, directly to the left and/or right in the margin.  But that still isn't exactly the layout of the 'roots and leaves' section.  And I've never seen a concertina-fold invoice.  What I did find were comparable practices in a region east of Europe.

That aside: if we just try to understand why the manuscript is formed as it is - and of course why the imagery is formed as it is too -   then I think the chances are better that we will make a real break-through with the written part of this text.  To distinguish between understanding something, and rationalizing it, isn't always easy, and to slide from one to the other is a constant temptation - the worse for being unconscious.

It is terribly easy to hide from ourselves our own bewilderment by projecting some character-flaw or irrationality onto what eludes our understanding. No-one likes to feel stupid, especially not people used to being the brightest kids in the school - like us.


But it's a universal tendency - it's the same mechanism that leads people to suppose that  "foreigners" are less rational and reasonable than their own countrymen, when actually the problem is ignorance of the reason for other ways.  In this case,  MS Beinecke 408 is the "foreigner", whose home is in the other country of the past, where things are done differently.  Though, in this case, rather more differently than most.


- as I see it.
I think it can be seen that (at least in some folios - I did not check all of them) the paint has been applied before the binding took place.

E.g., consider You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the subsequent f2r. The green colour is of different hue in f2r. However, if we consider f8r, which is part of the same (verso) side of the same bifolio as f1v, the hue is the same.

Of course, this is only natural if the paint is applied directly in the course of preparing the book. But there have been assumptions that the painting might have been made by another person, possibly much later than the text. The hues seem to tell that if it were so, then in any case it was before any binding took place.
There are many indications that at least some of colors were added later, some probably after binding. This has been discussed at length before, especially on Nick Pelling's site. For just a few examples, see point 7 of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
As a general rule, I don't think colors should form the basis of any interpretation of the content, for now.
Until further analyses of the manuscript are carried out, we just can't know when they were applied, or even if the person who applied them understood the content of the text.
I think that it is basically certain that both the drawings and the painting were done before the present binding, and probably before any binding. In several places one can see the drawings including painting 'disappear' in the binding gutter, something that could not be done to a pre-bound book.
This is just one example:

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Of course, it is also possible that the book was once bound without the painting, then disassembled, painted and rebound. This might explain a couple of things, e.g. the fact that the new binding was done with some of the paint still fresh enough to leave an imprint on the facing page (like in the above example).
The foliation could date from this time, to facilitate the re-assembly.
Quote:Of course, it is also possible that the book was once bound without the painting, then disassembled, painted and rebound.

Ah yes, good note.
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