(09-11-2025, 02:06 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To check that, you would need to be familiar with verse forms (rhythm). I don't know much about that. A metric representation of the ancient hexameter doesn't really help either.
Edit: I'm currently watching this tutorial:
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Gilles de Corbeil is about 200 years away from the voynich. The question is how long this tradition to write medical information in poem style remained or if this specific old medical information need to kept secret around 1400. Since we know that the words under the zodiac signs are old french? It was at least at one time in the hand of a french speaking guy.
(09-11-2025, 07:16 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I found this in a medical context and it's not poetry...
I still wonder whether those detached initials may have served some purpose. Perhaps they could be a simple replacement to line numbers? So that one could cite or note down "Book SoAndSo, page Nnn, Q" to mean a line that started with "Q"? Of course there could be more than one such line on that page, but it would still help a lot.
Why don't just number the lines, you may ask. Well, that would mean more work for the scribe, take up more space, and distract while reading. Plus there was the risk of skipping or duplicating a number, which would look bad on the scribe and would be a pain to correct.
Another possibility is that the detached (or highlighted) initial letters helped the reader to find the correct line after a line break. He would subconsciously remember the initial of the line he was reading, and resume reading at the line just below that.
In poetry, acrostic messages are another explanation. But maybe those are an evolution of the "functional" detached initials? That is, detached or highlighted initials were in used for functional purposes, and then some poet had the idea of composing the verses so that those letters spelled "Romeo loves Juliet" or whatever?
By the way, are those detached initials and other medieval scribal customs the reason why we today often capitalize the first letter of each verse in poetry and lyrics, rather than the first letter or each sentence, and omit punctuation?
Could something like this make sense?
All the best, --stolfi
(09-11-2025, 03:39 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Gilles de Corbeil is about 200 years away from the voynich.
That shouldn't be a problem. In my last post, I gave the example of a transcript from around 1418. That would coincide exactly with the date of the VMS.
The Voynich manuscript looks a little as if it had been poorly or very inaccurately copied from various books/texts... I have already noticed three similarities to other books – this may be a coincidence, or simply typical of the writing style of that time, and of course the writer must have obtained his information from somewhere, mostly from other books – but then why did he encrypt it? Something seems extremely illogical to me right now...
(09-11-2025, 05:04 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but then why did he encrypt it? Something seems extremely illogical to me right now...
Assuming that the VMS is a composite manuscript, not every part is necessarily equally “worthy of encryption.” As far as Uroscopy is concerned, at least the illustration shown You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. is quite useful evidence.
An article about uroscopy that is well worth reading (unfortunately only available in German):
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edit: Here is another entertaining poem by an anonymous writer (hexameter) from the 14th century:
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Omnipotens dominus plasmavit humi Medicinam,
Ut relevaret onus hominis morbique ruinam.
Carminibus, verbis, petris, radicibus, herbis.
Frondibus et sueis, lacrymis, venis quoque brucis,
Seminibus, granis, périt omnis morbus inanis.
A mortis cede subito, Medicina, recede.
Tunc Medicina périt, cum mors sua debita querit.
Si mors tardari posset medicoque levari,
Viveret Archigenes, Ypocras necnon Galienus:
Cum medicus moritur, tunc mortis gloria scitur!
Mors naturalis et morbus primicialis
Numquam curantur sed paulisper leviantur.
Fortis Natura per se curat mala plura,
Sed si lassatur, hanc phisicus auxiliaturģ
Si nimis artatur et morbus predominatur,
Ars tunc cassatur medici, mors seva minatur.
Sagax Natura medici sit maxima cura,
Nam coniectura gravis est nimis ad sua iura.
Non medici vēstis, aurum nec vana loquela
Morborum causas curant, sed recta medeia.
Crebro mendaces medicos ego damno loquaces:
Mortem victuro tribuunt, vitam morituro.
Multi sunt medici qui sunt egris inimici,
Qui non scrutantur res sed subito medicantur,
Et sic purgantes fiunt persepe necantes.
Cum vaga Natura partes petit interiorum,
Tunc in censura multi titubant medicorum.
Multis cautelis morum gravitate fidelis
Utatur medicus nec sit nimis ipse pudicus.
Fallit in urina medicum deceptio bina:
Quod calet in gelido, friget et in calido.
Cur tu femineum conceptum scire fateris,
Urina dubitans an sit maris aut mulieris?
Cum medicus dubitai de morbi condicione,
Ignotum temptat quid dicere cum racione.
(09-11-2025, 05:04 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Voynich manuscript looks a little as if it had been poorly or very inaccurately copied from various books/texts... I have already noticed three similarities to other books – this may be a coincidence, or simply typical of the writing style of that time, and of course the writer must have obtained his information from somewhere, mostly from other books – but then why did he encrypt it? Something seems extremely illogical to me right now...
My theory (quite "non-consensus", be warned) is that the text is not encrypted at all. It just some East Asian language in an ad-hoc phonetic script devised by the Author. The contents would be transcriptions of the most important (according to the locals) medical and astrological books from that place; if not Chinese, apparently reflecting Chinese influence.
BUT that is only about the
textual contents. The illustrations must have taken the essential details from those books (like "a diagram divided into 12 sectors, with these star names in each sector"), but most of the other details would have been provided by an
European Scribe who was recruited by the Author to put his notes to vellum. In particular, I believe that all the nymphs, dresses, castles, animals, and most details of the plants in the Herbal section were invented by the Scribe, with at most some crude sketches or verbal instructions by the Author ("okay, you can put one of those "nymphs" of yours in each sector, if you want. And draw a star too. Just make sure that each sector has the right name.")
And the Scribe of course followed
European scribal customs, such as the shape of paragraphs, and drew his inspiration for the drawings on
European books of the times. In particular, he must have looked at European herbals, possibly the so-called "alchemical herbals", for inspiration when inventing the plants of the Herbal section.
All the best, --stolfi
(10-11-2025, 12:11 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My theory (quite "non-consensus", be warned) is that the text is not encrypted at all. It just some East Asian language in an ad-hoc phonetic script devised by the Author. The contents would be transcriptions of the most important (according to the locals) medical and astrological books from that place; if not Chinese, apparently reflecting Chinese influence.
Interesting theory – but that would make translation nearly impossible. At that time, in china a kind of official language was just beginning to develop, and otherwise there were hundreds of dialects and languages in the region.
Foreign (unknown) languages have always been a good form of encryption, especially when they are transcribed phonetically. Who knows today how they were really pronounced back then?
Since I am convinced that you have in-depth information and background knowledge on this, are there any sources or threads here? If I am convinced, I can finally give up my laborious work...
(09-11-2025, 03:53 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (09-11-2025, 03:39 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Gilles de Corbeil is about 200 years away from the voynich.
That shouldn't be a problem. In my last post, I gave the example of a transcript from around 1418. That would coincide exactly with the date of the VMS.
Ok, but then it was no secret at all? Do you looked at the full text to find more similarities? Or is that a general theme that other maybe used too and we maybe have to find a topic that need to kept secret?
And do we have more examples of text with line as a functional unit?
(10-11-2025, 02:04 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And do we have more examples of text with line as a functional unit?
We don't have anything comparable to the VM.
(10-11-2025, 02:04 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ok, but then it was no secret at all? Do you looked at the full text to find more similarities? Or is that a general theme that other maybe used too and we maybe have to find a topic that need to kept secret?
It seems that there were also poems (in hexameters) that were very critical of physicians (see the addendum in the last post). It would certainly be a serious matter to potentially fall out with one's own guild. However, I do not know how common or widespread poems of this kind were.
As far as hexameters themselves are concerned, at first glance the lines in the VMS often seem too long to me ( too many words ). However, I would not rely on the spaces set.