The Voynich Ninja

(25-09-2025, 10:09 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's the VMs artist's modus operandi, doing things in odd ways - intentionally - visual trickery, ambiguity, duality, heraldic canting, code shifting and so on.

You and I agree on this, R. Sale, but here’s the thing, I wonder if we shouldn’t necessarily be looking at books of heraldry, or alchemy, or herbals or religious iconography, but whether there is any medieval text or tradition of the time period incorporating these types of textual/visual obfuscation (and I include negation in this) on such a scale. I don’t even know how I would search for this - is there a name for this type of writing?

(25-09-2025, 10:24 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's about how far I'm comfortable going these days. Religious imagery was omnipresent, dominating every one of the visual arts. It seems clear to me that the VM artist(s) borrowed from that imagery. 

This can be for as simple a reason as inspiration for poses. In other words, grab the most available images as examples because you suck at drawing. 

But it can also be part of a broader programme, which is what I still believe. But I no longer pretend to know the artist's motivations. Pointing out iconographic similarities in pose and thematic content is more objective.

By the way: for the medieval viewer, Christ rising from the tomb is exactly the same story as Jonah emerging from the mouth of the fish.

And the alchemist achieving the Philosopher’s Stone, lol. 

I know you’re steering away from interpretation (a dead shame, in my opinion), but I don’t see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as that emergence; rather as the start of the process, in which everlasting life (Christ) is already present amongst prima materia that needs to be refined until only Christ (the Stone) is left. 

Possibly talking through my hat.

(25-09-2025, 04:51 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing that's always fascinated me is the male figure right underneath the one holding the spike.

My guess is that it the "spurtle" is just a walking staff, as would be used -- even in a bath pool -- by an elderly or infirm person. 

And the nymph below her is just washing her forearm.

All the best, --jorge

(25-09-2025, 04:51 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing that's always fascinated me is the male figure right underneath the one holding the spike.

As for that figure being male, the flat chest may not be sufficient evidence.  Note that, in that pool, nymphs 2, 4,  and 6, from top to bottom, probably did not have salient breasts originally; they look like they were added later.  Moreove, nymphs 3 and 7 show signs of erasure in the chest area.  (Iron-gall ink, they say? No way...)

All the best, --jorge

(26-09-2025, 07:40 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And the nymph below her is just washing her forearm.

The nymph below her is one of the few unambiguously male figures in Q13, which is remarkable in and of itself. Even in the purely balneological interpretation (which I do not think is tenable), the presence of a few male figures in what is clearly a (nude) female oriented setting should raise questions. 

And why is the man drawn in a different position than the vast majority of female figures in the quire, who are, in the balneological paradigm, washing their hips or butts? 

Why expect literalism at all in this crazy section? Is this one washing her knee while observing the swimming pool yoga instructor wrestle a pool noodle?
[attachment=11490]

What I'm trying to get at is that Q13 as a whole does not work as a literal depiction: it's full of visual symbolism. Interpreting that symbolism is proving difficult though, with nothing really making a splash or convincing many others.

(26-09-2025, 08:00 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As for that figure being male, the flat chest may not be sufficient evidence.  Note that, in that pool, nymphs 2, 4,  and 6, from top to bottom, probably did not have salient breasts originally; they look like they were added later. 

I agree what something weird is going on with the breasts, but don't see how it affects this figure. If anything, it shows that maybe some more figures were originally drawn as male? 

It's also in the hair style. Agreed, the short hair is shared by men and women, but when they do draw a male figure, it almost invariably has this type of hair.
(In some cases, the otherwise male figures are drawn "Ken doll" style without genitals, but this is not unusual).

I'm sorry to disagree with Koen, with whom I share other ideas. And I agree with Stolfi that the spurtle is a walking staff. On the first page of this thread, I already mentioned that it's a pilgrim's staff and included a comparative image.

These interpretive controversies regarding elements of the Voynich imagery recur time and again because, in my opinion, the intention is focused on isolated elements and overlooks the whole. You can't see the forest for the trees. In this case, we must examine the entire folio f75r, and what we see is a group of female figures sliding down from the roof of a tent, a tent that is repeated in other images in the codex and that we can reasonably interpret as the sky.

The iconographic interpretation of Quire 13 is extremely difficult, but it is the key to interpreting the entire book. The female figures are the same ones each holding a star in the zodiacal pages, and that's why I interpret the figures as personifications of the stars and that it is their influence that descends to Earth. This would be the reason why we see one of them with a pilgrim's staff, to symbolize the beginning of a journey.

Note that the supposed man has several lines running down his left arm, giving the impression of a quick movement, as if his arm had just been under water and he lifted it out, with water trickling down. I find this remarkable, because all the other nymphs seem to be posing or making slow movements, whereas this one appears to have just made a swift gesture of pulling his arm from the water.

(26-09-2025, 09:24 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This would be the reason why we see one of them with a pilgrim's staff, to symbolize the beginning of a journey.

A pilgrim's staff surely doesn't just symbolize any journey, right? Nowadays, we can walk to Compostela for fun, but there was much more to the Pilgrim in the Middle Ages. They would trek to holy sites (Jerusalem, Rome...) as a devotional practice, usually with the idea of penance in mind. Suffer hardships to receive forgiveness for sins. In parts of Europe, imposed pilgrimage was even part of the judicial system (see: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).

Just to say, to a medieval audience, a pilgrim had a completely different connotation than one who simply wanders. The itinerant aspect was certainly part of it, but not the main thought.

The Man of Sorrows was so popular in the Middle Ages because it shows how Jesus suffered on our part to atone for our sins. This was as much a fact in the Middle Ages as the sun rising in the morning, and a thought illuminating their whole existence like the sun's rays. What the pilgrim does, is very much the same thought, but on a small, individual level: suffering for God.

(26-09-2025, 08:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If anything, it shows that maybe some more figures were originally drawn as male? (In some cases, the otherwise male figures are drawn "Ken doll" style without genitals, but this is not unusual).

Or, rather, in some cases female figures are depicted without salient breasts and with neck-length hair.  As in these examples from f72r3 (Scorpio Cancer), outer band, 01:00 and 04:00:

[attachment=11491][attachment=11492]

In the second example, notice how the breasts were added later, in different ink.  The same ink that added the crown to another nymph on that page...

All the best, --jorge