(05-07-2025, 12:19 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (21-06-2025, 06:12 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
And indeed Venetian does not have the geminated consonants of Italian, not at all: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oh come on. For real?
Your own example shows double consonants after a few lines already. (Other example of singing italians: quite worthless here)
The geminated consonants of Italian are a
phonetic feature that is reproduced in writing: "notte" is not just written differently than "note", it sounds different too. Gemination means a very brief stop before some consonants, like "t", "p", "k" (which is spelled "ch", and "cch" when doubled), and a lengthening of other consonants, like "m", "n", "l", "s". Most consonants can have that dual pronunciation. The case of "s" however is more complicated because between vowels, as in "casa" the simple "s" sound is generally replaced by a soft "z" sound. The simple "s" sound exists mostly at the beginning or end of words ("sento", "gas"), or in clusters like "basta".
Therefore, in Italian spelling the "ss" has
two functions: (1) when between vowels, it prevents the sound from turning into a "z" sound, and (2) adds the lengthening/stop of geminated consonants ("cassa" v. "casa").
Spoken Venetian does not have geminated consonants, not even for the "s" sound. (The videos I posted were meant to show that.) . That is an unusual feature among Italian "dialects"; in spoken Neapolitan, for instance, geminated consonant sounds are quite noticeable. When speaking Italian, I still must make a conscious effort to pronounce the geminated consonants, and often forget to do so. Sometimes, before I finish the first sentence, other Italians will ask "are you Venetian"?
But the most common spelling system for the Venetian language is basically the standard Italian spelling, with a few changes, and therefore consonants other than "s" are never doubled. But "ss" is still
written doubled between vowels, because a single "s" there, which phonetically would make more sense, would be pronounced "z" according to the Italian pronunciation rules. For example, when the Italian word "cassa" ("box", pronounced with
doubled "s" sound) is translated into Venetian, it must still be written "cassa" but is be pronounced with a
simple s sound. Whereas the Venetian word that is written "casa" is pronounced "caza", as in Italian.
(Among the changes that had to be made is that "ce" and "ci" in written Venetian ("cena", "cinghia") must be pronounced with a simple "s" consonant, whereas in Italian they are pronounced with a "tch" consonant.)
That spelling system is used for the convenience of those Italian speakers who do not speak Venetian and/or cannot be expected to learn a different spelling system just for it. But if one were to design a Venetian spelling system from scratch, the "s" sound would be written with a single letter that would always be pronounced like simple s, even between vowels. (And also "ch", "sc", "gh", "gn", "gl" would be replaced by single letters.)
Quote:it is just not true to say that there is no „geminizing“ at all in North italian variants.
I did not say that! Again, other Italian dialects
do have geminated consonants in the spoken language, and therefore their written versions have them too.
All the best, --jorge