(05-01-2025, 08:25 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've been wondering how so many mistakes (like the horrible anatomically wrong legs) could have happened when copying the Zodiac from a model. A direct copy can't be that bad. I imagine a scenario where the author of the VM's drawings did not have access to the original but had to rely on someone's bad sketches.
It must have been copied from a model. The correspondences to tradition are just too numerous. What we don't know though, is just how bad that model was. Scorpions were all over the place. And apparently many faulty options were available for lobster legs. Combine a faulty model with some misinterpretations by the VM scribes, and the result we got is about what I'd expect.
It's a bush disguised as a basket. <?>
Looking for more horns. This Swiss depiction of Moses has better horns than the Lauber illustrations, but the date is 1460.
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Medieval Demons score a quick four points in the zone (1350-1440) in Post #43, while the belabored Actual Bulls have scored only three pairs of lyre-shaped horns.
(05-01-2025, 08:49 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's a bush disguised as a basket. <?>
Looking for more horns. This Swiss depiction of Moses has better horns than the Lauber illustrations, but the date is 1460.
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Some nice colored underlining there, I don't think I've ever seen that before.
Regarding lyre-shaped horns, I think we can conclude that they really aren't as rare as they may appear. We are mostly interested in when they appear on a horse-like bull.
As far as mistakes, there are a range of different "errors" from minor to major. The pizzle is anatomically incorrect, but it was variously and widely used in art and in heraldry. The messed-up legs are a totally different story. Can they be attributed to ignorance or accident?
A major aspect here is to find the best manuscript match for the bulls of VMs Taurus. Part of that is the interest to find the potential sources of inspiration for the VMs artist. The evidence so far is interesting in that it has largely separated itself into two categories: either before 1350 or after 1440. There are only a few examples in between. Where do the VMs influences come from? From after 1440? Or from heraldry? Both lyre-shaped horns and the pizzle reveal potential heraldic influences.
Keeping track of movements on the spreadsheet, I see the Augsburg bull has dropped to seventh place. Looking at the new leaders, I see the actual feet / hooves of the 1445 Mittelrhein bull are drawn in a manner quite similar to the VMs and this is not so for many other examples.
I removed some categories that, as others suggested, were probably features of the VM artist's rudimentary style:
* weird back legs (0 hits, even with very similar bulls)
* smooth outline (this was a bad category to begin with, hard to delineate - no pun intended)
* round ears (same)
* amount of hair on head - this is even different between the two VM bulls
I
did keep instances where the VM artist went out of their way to include details: the large dewclaws and the defined bump near the top-back of the front leg.
Gioynich posted a crossbowman from ÖNB 3072 here: You are not allowed to view links.
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When I saw the bull from that same MS, I knew it was something special. It's now at the top of the list.
I agree it's not relevant, but this Taurus has funny hind legs.
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It looks like two guys in a bull suit.
This one could be a decent match - Koninklijke Bibliotheek, KB, KA 16 (Der Naturen Bloeme), folio 70r, Flanders, ca. 1350.
I see that "both eyes visible" was also removed. Was that intentional?