My reason for suspecting this is quite a practical one.
95% of all words in the MS end with a character that is an i or a e with one of four "swirls".
That is:
n r l m
b s y g
Of the remaining (only!) 5%, the majority end with d or o.
Words ending o usually also exist ending y.
(Words ending d usually also exist ending dy).
We are talking about frequencies that are well within the range of possible scribal errors.
(Note that all this is my 'hunch'. Of course I have no proof that this proposed equivalence is valid).
OK, so you mean, specifically, that o endings were meant to be one of those eight glyphs, which turned into o by scribal error?
So that is what I think too, except for the question of whether the error was made by the original Scribe or by my Fantastic Retracer...
All the best, --jorge
I would rather say that they are equivalent in all positions, but certain shapes are preferred in some positions.
Perhaps the (hypothetical) draft that the scribes were copying from was not very clear.
I have the same feeling about o and a. Since you have looked closely at the handwriting, you will have seen that o and a are frequently hard to distinguish, almost as if it didn't matter which one to use.
(24-09-2025, 02:22 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thai: ดาวลูกไก่ Dāwlūkkị̀ "Chicken star"
To be precise: ลูกไก่ means chick, or "baby chicken". Thai does not modify words for plural, and this is almost certainly a plural, so "chick stars".
I strongly suspect that this is a rather modern name.
Another name for Pleaides is กัตติกา or Kattika (I did not know this - got it from Google translate :-) ). This derives from Sanskrit and I suspect it is the older name. (Thai borrows more words from Sanskrit / Pali than English from Latin / French. These all tend to be more formal words).
For the Sanskrit word, see here: You are not allowed to view links.
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(25-09-2025, 01:14 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have the same feeling about o and a. Since you have looked closely at the handwriting, you will have seen that o and a are frequently hard to distinguish, almost as if it didn't matter which one to use.
Indeed. When doing statistical analyses, it may be a good idea to map
a,
o,
y to the same letter, when possible. Maybe also identify
r and
s.
All the best, --jorge
That has always been my question. Is it an ‘o’ with a skin fold, or is it a ‘g’?
But then there is also the other side.
Whether it's Taurus, taurum, tauri, or tauro. I've seen all four in books. Everything is correct.
In Turkish, it is called ‘Süreyya’.
My wife has this name and bears the name of this star cluster.
(25-09-2025, 01:14 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have the same feeling about o and a. Since you have looked closely at the handwriting, you will have seen that o and a are frequently hard to distinguish, almost as if it didn't matter which one to use.
I remember many years ago reading a quote by TT that, after having transliterated the MS, he wasn't sure at all whether a and o are different things. If that is the case, the only solution I see is thinking of them as positional variants. Just like EVA-y, for that matter.
Even a can be seen as e attached to a i => ei
In fact, e shaped characters would be: a b c d g h s y u (even that it could be e n) and i shaped characters would be: j l m n r
Then we have q o as most used without e or i shape.
And the gallows...
(25-09-2025, 08:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remember many years ago reading a quote by TT that, after having transliterated the MS, he wasn't sure at all whether a and o are different things. If that is the case, the only solution I see is thinking of them as positional variants. Just like EVA-y, for that matter.
The right approach is to seriously consider that as a possibility, or an 'option'.
The problem is that there are many similar options, and trying all possible combinations is not feasible.
This is where someone capable of using AI methods could do wonders.
The next problem is, that - until now - people looking to using AI, do not understand this, and are at the beginner level of Voynich MS text research: 'vords' are words, find the character translation table, find the language.
(25-09-2025, 11:12 AM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even a can be seen as e attached to a i => ei
In fact, e shaped characters would be: a b c d g h s y u (even that it could be e n) and i shaped characters would be: j l m n r
Indeed, the Voynichese glyphs (except
q) seem to have been designed as systematic combinations of simple strokes in pairs:
[
attachment=11486]
(The "red lines" are missing in that image, sorry.)
The column of the ligature should not be in the table. Instead there should be a column for the
h glyph, which I believe is a single stroke. The two gyphs in that column would be
Ch and
Ih.