Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my essay in detail everyone. I almost forgot that this sort of reasoned and well informed discussion could occur on the internet!
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think "outsider art" is a valid option at all, because it is a term used to describe certain phenomena in the artistic world starting in the 1800's. Take a look at this Wikipedia page of outsider artists: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I recognize that using the modern term "Outsider Art" for a mediavel text is problematic. Perhaps ReneZ's term Outsider Philosphy would be have been a better choice. Although art historians might be reluctant to use a modern term here, that fact wouldn't prevent someone in the middle ages from being an early worker in the somewhat the same vein as Henry Darger if given the opportunity. The easy access to low-cost paper and art materials in industrial times allowed all sorts of people to create works that would have not been likely in the middle ages. Still, it is possible that someone in the middle ages found themselves in the "exceptional circumstances" that allowed them to create an abberant and highly personal narrative outside of contemporary traditions. After all, someone had to be first, and perhaps it was the VM author.
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. The problematic plants. It is clear that the VM artist knew how to draw plants and their parts, but the majority of the plants depicted in it are partially or entirely problematic. This in itself is not strange at all, since medieval herbals are not modern field books and only the most finely executed specimens produce reliable plant pictures. In many cases, stylized or fantastical elements are simply part of the tradition. The unusual thing is that we cannot link these plants, their selection and their order to any of the known herbal traditions. But even this is not unique. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussed on the forum some time ago starts out with established traditions, so it is certainly not "outsider art". But then it goes on to a section with hundreds of seemingly made-up plant drawings and descriptions.
This is a wonderful link to the Trinity College Herbal and thank you for sharing it! I can't read the text and agree that some of the later plant illustrations are fanciful, but even then, they perhaps lack the frankly unbotanical aspects seen in the VM herbal section like stems growing into one another and shoots emerging like plumbing pipes from a flat base.
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2. You point at the lack of corrections to suggest the existence of a creative flow. Now it is possible that the text was made this way, but the whole "no corrections" thing is a myth people just keep perpetuating because they hear others say it. People on the forum have pointed out plenty of places where the writing acts weird, and potential corrections. The problem is that we don't understand the text or even the writing system, so we cannot know what constitutes a correction or a mistake. If you were looking at an ancient Hebrew or Arabic text (assuming you can't read those scripts), would you be able to point out to me all the places where the scribe performed corrections? Of course not! Can you tell me all the techniques they would have used for correcting text, and how to recognize them? If you saw no clear signs of corrections, would you call the text fake? That's how silly the "no corrections" meme is.
Point taken, I think you are right about this.
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, if someone were creating "flow of consciousness" art, would they opt to add a bunch of celestial diagrams to their dozens of plant images? Is a scientific diagram really what the outsider artist likes to make? It feels to me like the polar opposite, since diagrams are by definition structured and planned out.
Yes, the celestial diagram section certainly has the least "creative flow" feeling of any part of the manuscript. Perhaps that's why, as you note, there is a sense of hurry and simplification at the end of it. This section feels the least mad and wacky, with the carefully plotted diagrams and the zodiacal symbols being a rare concrete link to the normal world of contemporary ideas. Perhaps the author, in the transiant vaguaries of their mental condition, was making an effort here to get a bit closer to normality.
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now as I see it, the presence of these rushed pages is an argument for meaning of the images, not against. If you are just making up nonsense to fool someone but you're running out of time, you just take the dozens of pages you have already. You don't go on rushing in even more nymphs and pools and plants and then add a whole text-only section. Similarly, if you are creating l'art pour l'art (since we're doing anachronisms today) and just kind of flowing along, there is no reason to rush things, to get those last pages done.
If, however, you have a certain plan, schedule, assignment or an exemplar to copy... and you've already drawn a hundred nymphs but there are more and more to go. Then you might start slacking, cutting corners and rushing things.
Yes, this is a good point, and I think this is a productive way to try and interprest the MS without being able to read the text. I do think the creation of the text was associated with meaning in the author's mind as they created it, but that the text may not be readable in a tradtional sense. The scenario I'm imagining is that the VM author was merrily scribbling along with words going through their head as they wrote, but the lettering had only the most peripheral realtion to words they were saying. Imagine someone thinking or speaking aloud "and by taking the celestial elixar from the fourth house of the stars" (or some other alchecmical mumbo jumbo) but writing something like "sofrtha frothro sofro soth othrosa." I know this seems outlandish, but the process I propose is not too different from the semi-illiterate graphic novels my 8 year old kid creates. She includes pictures and a sort of text that correlates with the words she says in her head as she writes, but which is not deciperable by anyone else.
With the astrological diagram section, I feel the author set out to create a longer planned exposition of some kind, but got a bit bored at the end and hurried up while dutifully completing what they had planned.
(09-11-2023, 10:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.4. "The author seems to be familiar with the general appearance of contemporary texts but does not appear to fully understand their meaning." This is a problematic argument. Maybe the makers understands the meaning of contemporary texts so well that they can play around with them, making new versions, applying them to different contexts. We simply don't know. I don't understand what the scenario is here. So this person had access to a whole library of learned texts but didn't understand what they were seeing and then proceeded to spend considerable resources in making a dumb imitation of it?
One scenario I can imagine is that a clever and creative but highly neurodivergent individual was born into a privledged aristocratic family, had access to a number of contemporary texts but was never granted the education to learn to read them in their Latin, perhaps because she was female and a bit daft. (The extensive non-sexual depiction of naked women in the VM suggests to me that the author might possibly have been a woman, or at least not a cishet male, but that's another story) Her family ingulged her by providing the writing materials she asked for, and left her alone to wander in her mystical fantasy world, which she documented compulsively. After her death, her loving brother compiled an assortment of her writings, produced over many years, into the small codex that has come down to us.
No evidence for any of this of course, but to me it is not an entirely unplausible scenario that explains the mystery we confront.