The Voynich Ninja

I think the tail can be clearly seen in #10, which is why I assigned it to glyph B.

Regarding the 8-shape, while copying the text myself it quickly became obvious that e is written first, and then the loop is made counter-clockwise as part of a second stroke. As counterintuitive as it may seem I'd say this is the way my handwritten 8's resemble the VMS ones the most.

First pick either e or i and then pick an upwards flourish, a downwards tail, a counter-clockwise loop or a counter-clockwise loop with a tail.

Also, I did an experiment where I tried to write the loops faster and faster each time, and some of those 8's resembled glyphs 6-9 and 11 from the OP.

A. 1-4      EVA-d
B. 5-13    EVA-g 
C. 14-16  EVA-m
I see EVA-g as EVA-s inclined to the right with a final loop.    s  g
I see EVA-m as EVA-r inclined to the right with a final loop.   r   m

(09-10-2023, 06:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you intend on writing an 8-shape, wouldn't you start going clockwise in the top loop instead of drawing a "c" first and then lifting the pen? (I still know very little about this). If you are right that they generally drew the c-shape first, this would be interesting, because like you say several glyphs would be natural "stops" along the same trajectory. And even though they could probably have formed the "8" in a different way, they still followed this trajectory to write it.

When I write an "8" I start anti-clockwise on top like a "c" but that's just me. I don't lift the pen until the end.

Writing two strokes instead of one, with the "c" shape first must have felt more natural to them than us, because they used to write cursiva and its Latin abbreviations -ris, -cis that are so similar to m, g. Also, they did not intend to write an 8.

(09-10-2023, 06:54 PM)zobowiazanie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.First pick either e or i and then pick an upwards flourish, a downwards tail, a counter-clockwise loop or a counter-clockwise loop with a tail.

All kinds of interesting implications here for how "glyphs" could be parsed.  If the parts were written separately, maybe they had discrete meanings too.

[attachment=7730]

What it the tail of EVA-n but an empty flourish though? Is there any case where it adds information apart from "this is the last minim"?

Edit: well I guess looking at Patrick's example, it could indeed be seen as one variation that just happens to be the most common one.

(09-10-2023, 11:12 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What it the tail of EVA-n but an empty flourish though? Is there any case where it adds information apart from "this is the last minim"?

Edit: well I guess looking at Patrick's example, it could indeed be seen as one variation that just happens to be the most common one.

It's true that this raises the question of why certain combinations of [i] or [e] with particular flourishes should be so much more common than others.  Why is [n] so common, but [b] so rare?  Why is [d] so common, but [j] so rare?  Why are [y] and [l], or [s] and [r], more evenly balanced?

[

Here is the image from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia again. If you were to transcribe this, both of them would be [n].


[/quote]

They could be a n and a ij (i + long i) as well

This exercise can be used as a good example of what Voynich MS transliteration is about, naming about making decisions which tend to be subjective.

Going to the opening post, and the two glyphs near the bottom (that we were not asked to transcribe)...

Here, one is more likely to be interested in the meaning. Do they both mean the same or not?
What is clear is that they look different. Only once we can read the text, we can be sure if they mean the same or not. This reading is usually possible for text in latin characters in medieval manuscripts, but it doesn't quite work out that way here.

With the Voynichese characters, we are in no position to distinguish meaning. All we can do is distinguish shapes.

That is a set of two questions:
- which are the different possible shapes? (note: since they are handwritten, no two are identical, so we need to identify groups of characters that we can consider representing the same item)
- to which group does each one belong.

The answer to the first question is the more tricky one, and in this experiment, it can be addressed in two ways:
- by just looking at these 16
- by looking at (or rather: having looked at) the entire MS

Again, the answers are inevitably subjective, so there is no 'correct' answer. Even a majority vote (or average) can be wrong.

In fact, while a majority vote is likely to be the safest solution, there is likely at least one solution among the many that is better than the average. We just don't know which one. And this philosophical point does not help in any practical way.

While doing the Koen's exercise, what I was looking was any signs of intentionality.

Quote:That is a set of two questions:
- which are the different possible shapes? (note: since they are handwritten, no two are identical, so we need to identify groups of characters that we can consider representing the same item)

Taking the same example of the two glyphs not included in the exercise. If we find that they are used interchangeably in the same position inside the vords or even better, inside the same vords, then it could be an indicator that they are the same and that the different look is just a matter of idle hand or style. Of course, it could also mean that they may be the same but with some different property (e.g., accent). This would need to check at least a quite large deal of the manuscript.
But again, it could also mean just that the vord is different and the glyphs just look alike for some curious reason, maybe because of the glyph design process that grouped things in that way.

Here's a word ending in dy from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which in my opinion quite clearly shows that d is made with two strokes: an e and then a loop.



Here's some more, just two lines below.