So, it's actually two dain, two red ones.
In this text attributed to Gaston Febus.
Genève, Bibliothèque de Genève, Ms. fr. 169
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
In the initial 'Description', the word occurs in f. 9 and f. 73, and the transcriptions seem clear enough (wdIk), yet it is apparent from the context that the word should be 'daim', the French word for a fallow deer.
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
So, is this a dialectical variation, a scribal error, or what?
(23-04-2023, 11:49 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, is this a dialectical variation, a scribal error, or what?
Spelling variation: ain and aim sound the same at the end of a word.
(23-04-2023, 11:49 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, it's actually two dain, two red ones.
Yes, the use of this word seems pretty widespread, as I noticed it when reviewing the Edda Oblongata
AM 738 4to, an Icelandic manuscript You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. -- because I thought the body proportions might be quite similar to the nymphs in the VM (comment to Koen's blog post You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.). Notice -- I'm not saying the VM is from Iceland -- just the two sets of artists involved had similar issues with accurate portrayal of the human form (see clip from 41v). And liked drawing surreal plant forms that looked similar (see below).
[
attachment=7296]
ANYWAY -- I found the mysterious red dain deer(? that's quite a tail!) nibbling on the Voynich-like leaves of the Tree of Life in 43r of this manuscript.
[
attachment=7295]
Nice!
I can't remember having seen a squirrel in any MS before.
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
Dain is the name of one of the four deer that live in the World Tree. Apparently it means "dead one", and it is also a Dwarf's name. The resemblance to the French for "deer" is thus a cool coincidence.
Regarding the 17th century manuscript and proportions, one key difference is that the proportions of human figures in manuscripts like these (i.e. made far outside any of the major centers of production) are often very inconsistent. There is little care for bodily proportions, or indeed anatomy in general, and there is a lot of variation. Just compare the figures in the image posted above to this one: You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
The thing with VM figures is that yes, proportions are weird, but across hundreds of human figures they are
very consistent. There are really only a few clear outliers. So the nymphs have strange proportions, but in a consistent and seemingly deliberate way.
That said, I agree that there is a similar feel to certain aspects of the drawing, like the way animals are drawn. Maybe certain stylistic features are likely to emerge in artists that aren't trained to the same extent we see in "regular" manuscripts? I can't say "aren't trained at all", because I think some aspects of the drawings in both manuscripts are well executed, at least better than what I would be able to do if someone put a quill in my hand.
@MichelleL11
I really appreciate the second image.
In the Gaston Febus ms above, besides being written twice in red ink, 'dain' occurs twice in each of the two relevant text segments written in black ink. So, this is clearly a word variation that has currency at the time. However, if it was produced for Philip the Bold (d. 1404) there may be an issue with the date in the description.
'Dain' refers to a fallow dear, and if VMs 'daiin' is really 'daim', then that also would also refer to a fallow deer.
Would the author of the VMs text be a person who was *not* familiar with these fairly common French words??
@ReneZ
Yeah, it does sort of look like a squirrel, although the tail really isn't very bushy. However, if the investigation of manuscript illustrations has shown anything, it is that that the details of appearance really count for very little. Check out all (82) the different depictions of elephants, some with pointy, little horse's ears. If the image is supposed to *be* an elephant, then it *is* an elephant, regardless of ears, tails or whatever other abnormalities of *appearance* there may be.
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
And the representation posted above is clearly labeled. We know what the label means. There is no other potential 'fallow deer' in the illustration. There is no alternate interpretation.
So, why would the VMs text refer to fallow deer so frequently?
There is an interesting fellow, Olivier le Dain, barber (etc.) to French king, Louis XI, a bit late for the parchment dates. Would imply manuscript creation in mid to latter 1400s.
But, seriously, dain is a word, apparently a variant, known to anyone of the VMs era familiar with French, but has the translation been discussed previously? Perhaps I've missed it.
(25-04-2023, 04:24 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But, seriously, dain is a word, apparently a variant, known to anyone of the VMs era familiar with French, but has the translation been discussed previously? Perhaps I've missed it.
There is a lot to discuss because, as we all know, EVA is THE TRUTH and one match with an alternate spelling of a random word just has to mean something, right?
@nablator
No, not at all! I'm actually proposing a direct comparison between the way the word is written in VMs text, and the way it is written in Genève, Bibliothèque de Genève, Ms. fr. 169. Leave the EVA out of it entirely.
Given the various styles and hands in written text and the common potential to see the symbols as part of a familiar alphabet, the French words are clear enough in Febus and above. And in the VMs text, you don't need EVA to tell you that the VMs 'd' looks like a valid medieval 'd'. That is why "the folks at EVA" decided to call it a 'd'. At least that's the story I've heard. Some of the VMs symbol names are more closely aligned with their medieval equivalents than others. There are no problematic glyphs in d a i n. [Unless it's the 'n'.]
So, this is just superficial speculation, if you will, but if you were a medieval person, and you had read Febus relevant to dain, the fallow deer, and then you saw the word (XXXX) taken from the VMs, how would that word be read? What would be that person's interpretation? Could it be the same "word" in different handwriting?
(25-04-2023, 07:24 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given the various styles and hands in written text and the common potential to see the symbols as part of a familiar alphabet, the French words are clear enough in Febus and above. And in the VMs text, you don't need EVA to tell you that the VMs 'd' looks like a valid medieval 'd'. That is why "the folks at EVA" decided to call it a 'd'. At least that's the story I've heard.
The '8' shape is unusual for 'd'. In this Ms. fr. 169 there is one almost-8 shape on f. 9r and I don't know if there is any other. There are two common glyphs for 'd' (the choice seems random), one is like a mirrored '6', one with an upper loop and an open lower loop.
You have a better match with the lopsided
d in some 'cl' written in some styles of Cursiva, and with all other Voynichese glyphs as well, especially those with "plumes" looking like abbreviations. Bastarda is definitely not a good match for any Voynichese glyph.
There is clearly a range of variation in the examples, yet all are recognized and interpreted as the same letter. It's not a matter of visual similarity, it's a matter of interpretation. If the same sequence of letters occurs, is it the same word? Does it have the same meaning?
In a Ficino-like interpretation, one might see fallow deer as represented by antlers. Antlers are a fairly common heraldic charge in some situations.
On the other hand, the actual sound of the word when pronounced could be significant. "dain" certainly does not rhyme with the English 'pain'. Does the sound make a phonetic connection or does the letter indicate some other abbreviation?
We have no idea what game the VMs is playing. And whether it is playing or not. If there's a solution to be found, we already know it's not an easy one.