Regarding the VMs rainbows and whether or not the double rainbow is a throne that is unoccupied. And further as to whether this was an example of apophasis, of making note of something through the use of a literary device.
Not to mention literary, because it does not appear to function visually. There must be some sort of visual representation chosen <by the artist> to illustrate the artist's intention. A crown may be used to symbolize a king in both literary and visual examples. And if one knows the details of crowns, potentially there is much more to learn. Likewise a throne may symbolize a certain set of interpretations and both classical and Christian illustrations show rainbow thrones in the range of the medieval examples. This type of representative symbolism is metonymy and works in both literary and visual interpretations.
And so, the question is which interpretation might best apply. Is there a specific event that was relevant to such conditions?
There was the papal gift of La Sainte Hostie de Dijon. It was a big deal! There were annual celebrations. But does this apply to the VMs? Is the VMs rainbow an empty throne?
Is the idea of the 'empty throne' a valid one? Are there other examples?
Three examples where an empty throne is the central focus of the illustration occur in different versions of a book by Christine de Pizan, Le livre du chemin de long estude.
1) Harley 4431, fol. 192v, which is 'The Book of the Queen'
2) Ms Paris 836, folio 15r
3) KBR Ms 10982 folio 33v, which is a CdP autographed version from the library of the Dukes of Burgundy
The idea of the empty throne clearly exists in association with other evidence and events having Parisian and Burgundian connections and was in part coincident with the Anglo-Burgundian occupation of Paris from 1420 to 1435.
What about a cleric of water?
(09-08-2021, 07:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....both classical and Christian illustrations show rainbow thrones in the range of the medieval examples. ....
Do you have any examples of this ?
Edit: Is that roughly what you mean ?
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In the Christian context I found Revelation 4:1-11.
Then suddenly, after I wrote down these messages, I saw a portal open into the heavenly realm, and the same trumpet-voice I heard speaking with me at the beginning said, “Ascend into this realm! I want to reveal to you what must happen after this.” Instantly I was taken into the spirit realm, and behold—I saw a heavenly throne being set in place and someone seated upon it. His appearance was sparkling like crystal and glowing like a carnelian gemstone. Surrounding the throne was a circle of green light, like an emerald rainbow. Encircling the great throne were twenty-four thrones with elders in glistening white garments seated upon them, each wearing a golden crown of victory. And pulsing from the throne were blinding flashes of lightning, crashes of thunder, and voices. And burning before the throne were seven blazing torches, which represent the seven Spirits of God. And in front of the throne there was pavement like a crystal sea of glass. Around the throne and on each side stood four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind. The first living creature resembled a lion, the second an ox, the third had a human face, and the fourth was like an eagle in flight. Each of the four living creatures had six wings, full of eyes all around and under their wings. They worshiped without ceasing, day and night, singing, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty! The Was, the Is, and the Coming!” And whenever the living creatures gave glory, honor, and thanks to the One who is enthroned and who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fell facedown before the one seated on the throne and they worshiped the one who lives forever and ever. And they surrendered their crowns before the throne, singing: “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory, honor, and power, for you created all things, and for your pleasure they were created and exist.”
(09-08-2021, 07:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Three examples where an empty throne is the central focus of the illustration occur in different versions of a book by Christine de Pizan, Le livre du chemin de long estude.
It's part of the "Four queens who rule the world" narrative and its meaning is unclear to me, something religious obviously (descended from the sky): You are not allowed to view links.
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One of the queens is described as wearing a helm instead of a crown. You are not allowed to view links.
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The three others could match the 3 queens in the VMS but the one with the helm? I haven't seen anything like it.
(10-08-2021, 12:43 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (09-08-2021, 07:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Three examples where an empty throne is the central focus of the illustration occur in different versions of a book by Christine de Pizan, Le livre du chemin de long estude.
It's part of the "Four queens who rule the world" narrative and its meaning is unclear to me, something religious obviously (descended from the sky): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
One of the queens is described as wearing a helm instead of a crown. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The three others could match the 3 queens in the VMS but the one with the helm? I haven't seen anything like it.
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Login to view. the allegory is explained in this terms [google translate]:
After having traveled the Heavens under the leadership of the Sybil, Christine arrives before a tribunal where four queens sit: Wisdom in the East, with an armillary sphere under her feet (top left); Chivalry in the North, overlooking a fortress; Wealth in the East, with tools from builders; Nobility in the South, her feet resting on a king.
EDIT: You are not allowed to view links.
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(10-08-2021, 01:32 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EDIT: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. they say that in the following scene (and illustration) the central throne is occupied by the personification of Reason.
Thanks. I didn't read far enough. It's unclear who the princess is, interminably described as wearing a diadem (we -maybe- have one in the VMS?), illuminated by (about) twelve stars, beautiful, clad in white, holding an olive branch and a naked sword, angels all around, ... You are not allowed to view links.
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The next chapter is about the request from Earth to the queen Reason.
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So it seems to be the same figure addressed to as the daughter of God.
Wow.
EDIT: Confirmed here You are not allowed to view links.
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What I am referring to first of all are illustrations of figures actually sitting on rainbows, in various examples I've seen over time.
Classical examples in some versions of
L'Epistre d'Othea.
Christian examples:
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And others...
So it is not a matter as to whether deities are portrayed as sitting on rainbows (as thrones), clearly they are.
And secondly, the possibility of an empty throne as a symbolic representation of its absent occupant is also shown as an example of metonymy that occurs in the Paris-Burgundy milieu of the early 1400s. It was.
Does the VMs double rainbow represent a combination of the rainbow as a divine throne and the 'empty throne' as metonymic symbol for divinity, as both concepts are shown to be present and concurrent with the C-14 dates? And if so, what more specific information might be involved. La Sainte Hostie de Dijon is a fairly obvious, though historically forgotten, choice. Meanwhile the actual evidence provided by the VMs is slight and obviously absent. However, it is the unambiguous Burgundy connection to the results of other VMs investigations with similar historical ties that combine to enhance this historical possibility.
(10-08-2021, 05:35 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So it is not a matter as to whether deities are portrayed as sitting on rainbows (as thrones), clearly they are.
Yes, it was also my first thought that the rainbow itself could be the throne on which Christ sits. Here is an example:
[
attachment=5738]
Manuscript Leaf with the Last Judgment, from a Book of Hours, c. 1400. Made in Paris, France.
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Yes, precisely. Many of the Christian examples of rainbow thrones are in illustrations of the Last Judgment. And either Christian or classical, there is a clear association of the figure with the rainbow as a throne, something on which a deity may sit.
But what about a rainbow by itself? Does it mean anything? Has the rainbow started to become an object of scientific study? Or can it function as a symbol even when the occupant has gone? It's an interpretation based on experience, and from the same perspective as the C-14 dates, it seems more likely, among the educated, than not.
The old investigation of the Order of the Golden Fleece produced two potential examples where either one or both may represent the fleece. The illustrations are ambiguous, so the identifications are not beyond discussion. However, the historical fact is crystal-clear, that the Order originated in the state of Burgundy in 1430.
Likewise with the rainbow throne. There is plenty of room for ambiguity, The identification cannot be based of evidence, because the evidence is mostly lacking. The identification needs to be based on knowledge. The Sainte Hostie "event" begins in Dijon, capital of the state of Burgundy in 1434.
To find any sort of reference to events of such a similar place and time seems to me quite remarkable. It reveals that the apparently exotic illustrations of the VMs contains certain borrowed and modified versions of images and events which are current to the C-14 dates, or of historical and traditional significance at that time.
Bamberg Apocalypse with double rainbow throne.
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