The Voynich Ninja

Pages: 1 2 3 4

(22-06-2021, 09:19 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am on my phone and I cannot easily link stuff. Touwaide 2016 includes a relatively detailed discussion of the various sections as parts of a medical collection. I will post a quote when I get back home in a few days.

Thanks, Marco, this is the kind of reference I was looking for. Form the summary at prof. Bax's site (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), I gather that he skipped over certain parts, including the rosettes? This seems like a good indication that its inspiration may not be strictly medical, but rather something like the diagram you mention. Still of course, as Touwaide says, the overall composition seems to resemble that of medicine manuals.

Here is Touwaide's analysis of the different sections - from "Il manoscritto più misterioso - L’Erbario Voynich", in M. Formica (ed.). Villa Mondragone. Seconda Roma. Rome: Palombi Editori,2015.

Italian:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Sfogliando il manoscritto si distinguono immediatamente cinque parti dalle differenti caratteristiche, tanto illustrative quanto contenutistiche. La prima è quella che, riferendoci alla produzione libraria della scienza medievale, potremmo chiamare un "erbario" [30]. Rappresentazioni di piante occupano una larga parte delle pagine e sono accompagnate da un testo che, se possiamo paragonare il nostro manoscritto ad altri di ovvia interpretazione, descrive le peculiarità della pianta per permetterne una corretta identificazione, ne elenca i possibili usi (terapeutici, alimentari, cosmetici o anche veterinari), ne specifica le modalità di preparazione e, in molti casi, allerta il lettore su eventuali effetti collaterali nocivi, mettendolo in guardia contro le adulterazioni e falsificazioni disponibili sul mercato e prive di qualsiasi valore - sempre che non siano nocive così come suggerisce metodi per identificare tali prodotti.
Questa parte del manoscritto è seguita da un'altra [31], fatta di tabelle, ruote astrali e altri dati zodiacali che evocano l'astrologia e, di conseguenza, l'astronomia e i meccanismi imperscrutabili delle sfere eteree, più che il mondo sublunare degli umani e le piante medicinali [32]. Lo spaesamento dato dal fortissimo contrasto delle due serie di rappresentazioni non deve ingannare. Il materiale visuale di questa seconda parte presenta gli strumenti utilizzati da medici e guaritori per leggere negli astri la storia medica presente o futura dei loro pazienti, per tentare di decifrare il decorso delle malattie e pronosticare la loro risoluzione, o anche per indovinare la vita futura dei bambini appena nati e individuare segni di un possibile destino fuori dal comune.
La terza parte del manoscritto si contraddistingue per la presenza di donne svestite nell'atto di bagnarsi in complesse strutture d'ingegneria acquatica, in vasche alimentate da condotti che corrono ai margini delle pagine e costituiscono i riquadri che racchiudono il testo [33]. Queste articolate architetture idrauliche, con vasche disposte su vari livelli così da essere alimentate da cascate prive di qualsiasi pompa o altro meccanismo visibile, nelle quali l'acqua circola liberamente grazie alla pendenza, ricordano le fontane e i giochi d'acqua dei parchi rinascimentali che meravigliarono le corti dell'epoca. Qui le vasche sono popolate da donne -esclusa è la presenza maschile- che chiaramente si godono l'acqua, chiacchierando e occupandosi delicatamente l'una dell'altra. L'impressione di assistere a scene di erotismo femminile, che una prima visione delle immagini potrebbe suggerire, svanisce immediatamente ad una lettura più attenta. Piuttosto che scene di lusso stravagante e di possibile erotismo di gruppo, queste illustrazioni sembrano evocare bagni destinati a rilassare il corpo (e probabilmente anche lo spirito) e generare un sentimento di benessere, sempre che non siano più prettamente terapeutiche. Le donne non sono giovani fanciulle dal corpo ancora fresco e non marcato dalla sofferenza e dalle gravidanze eventualmente ripetute, ma signore dal corpo appesantito dal decorso della vita, con il grembo che ha generato vari bambini e ne porta ancora le tracce. Tali scene ricordano le terme di antica tradizione più che le fontane e gli spettacolari giochi di acqua del rinascimento. Penso alle sorgenti di acque termali che si incontrano dal Mediterraneo orientale all'Italia centrale -Pamukkale o Saturnia, per esempio- e, andando verso il nord, anche in Germania, come quelle di Baden Baden.
Percorrendo così il manoscritto e lasciandosi guidare dalla sua successione d'immagini si comincai a percepire una possibile coerenza che l'analisi riduttiva dei segni grafici, mirata a decriptare il linguaggio apparentemente sconosciuto, non ha individuato finora.
Dopo una breve quarta parte d'incerta interpretazione, possibilmente di nuovo dedicata all'astrologia [34], nella quinta parte del codice [35] le pagine sono divise in fasce orizzontali nelle quali testo e immagini sono organizzati in moduli ricorrenti con gli stessi elementi. Al lato del testo appare un recipiente cilindrico che ricorda un albarello, un vaso da farmacia o un flaconcino di colore con incisioni, dorature o altre raffinate decorazioni [36]. Questa immagine è affiancata da un breve testo di alcune linee sotto le quali appaiono varie rappresentazioni vegetali. Se paragonate a quelle della prima parte del manoscritto, queste piante sono minute e semplificate e sembrano indicare le specie dal utilizzare per preparare i prodotti contenuti nei vasi al lato del testo, piuttosto che istruire il lettore sulle loro caratteristiche. Sono probabilmente icone destinate a collegare questa parte del testo con la prima, così da permettere ai preparatori di poter individuare facilmente nella prima parte del Codice i prodotti da utilizzare per la confezione dei preparati. In questa ottica, i disegni di di questa sezione sono degli strumenti funzionali, utili alla consultazione e alla fruibilità del testo.
L'ultima parte del Voynich -la sesta- contrasta fortemente con quelle descritte sinora in quanto non contiene più illustrazioni [37]. Costituita anch'essa da fasce orizzontali, appare come una specie di rubriche in cui ognuna è individuata da una stella -nel margine sinistro. Stando alla fine di un manoscritto che racchiude una quantità apparentemente notevole di informazioni -anche se indecifrabili per noi- tale struttura simile ad un elenco evoca immediatamente un indice analitico, nel quale ogni elemento trattato nel manoscritto viene citato, con le sue caratteristiche, gli usi descritti nel corpo del testo e ogni altra informazione utile, così da creare una piccola sinossi.
Tale analisi delle parti costitutive del manoscritto fa emergere una coerenza che ricorda quella dei manuali di medicina, spesso accuratamente costruita.

[30] Questa parte corrisponde a f1r-f66v del manoscritto. Ai folii f57v-58v include un diagramma in piena pagina (f57v) e un folio di testo su entrambi i lati (f58r/v).
[31] f61r-73v
[32] Sui manoscritti di questo tipo, con le loro illustrazioni, vedere il volume abbondantemente illustrato di P.Whitfield "Astrology. A History", Harry N. Abrams, New York, 2001
[33] Si vedano i folii 75r-84v del Manoscritto.
[34] Folii 85r-86v
[35] Folii 87r-102v
[36] Per delle rappresentazioni di vasi di farmacia, vedere, per esempio, S. Rocchietta, "Antichi vasi di farmacia italiani", L'Ariete, Milano, 1986, o G.Lise "Ceramiche italiane di farmacia", Amilcare Pizzi, Cinisello Balsamo, 1987.
[37] Questa parte corrisponde a f103r-f117v (sic)

Minimally edited English translation by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Browsing through the manuscript, one can immediately distinguish five parts with different characteristics, both illustrative and in terms of content. The first is what, referring to the book production of medieval science, we could call a "herbarium" [30]. Representations of plants occupy a large part of the pages and are accompanied by a text that, if we can compare our manuscript to others of obvious interpretation, describes the peculiarities of the plant to allow a correct identification, lists its possible uses (therapeutic, alimentary, cosmetic or even veterinary), specifies the methods of preparation and, in many cases, alerts the reader about possible harmful side effects, warning him/her about adulterations and falsifications available on the market and devoid of any value - provided they are not harmful, as well as suggesting methods to identify such products.
This part of the manuscript is followed by another one [31], made of tables, astral wheels and other zodiacal data evoking astrology and, consequently, astronomy and the inscrutable mechanisms of ethereal spheres, rather than the sublunar world of humans and medicinal plants [32]. The disorientation given by the very strong contrast between the two sets of representations should not deceive. The visual material of this second part presents the tools used by physicians and healers to read in the stars the present or future medical history of their patients, to decipher the course of diseases and predict their resolution, or even to guess the future life of newborn children and detect signs of a possible unusual destiny.
The third part of the manuscript is distinguished by the presence of undressed women in the act of bathing in complex structures of aquatic engineering, in tanks fed by pipes that run along the margins of the pages forming the boxes that enclose the text [33]. These intricate hydraulic architectures, with tanks arranged on various levels so as to be fed by cascades without any pump or other visible mechanism, in which the water circulates freely thanks to the slope, are reminiscent of the fountains and water features of Renaissance parks that amazed the courts of the time. Here the basins are populated by women -all male presence is excluded- who are clearly enjoying the water, chatting and gently looking after each other. The impression of witnessing scenes of female eroticism, which a first viewing of the images might suggest, immediately vanishes upon closer inspection. Rather than scenes of extravagant luxury and possible group eroticism, these illustrations seem to evoke baths intended to relax the body (and probably the spirit as well) and generate a feeling of well-being, assuming they are not more purely therapeutic. The women are not young maidens with bodies still fresh and unmarked by suffering and possibly repeated pregnancies, but ladies with bodies weighed down by the course of life, with wombs that have produced several children and still bear the traces of them. Such scenes are more reminiscent of the baths of ancient tradition than the fountains and spectacular water features of the Renaissance. I am thinking of the thermal springs that one encounters from the eastern Mediterranean to central Italy -Pamukkale or Saturnia, for example- and, going northward, even in Germany, such as those of Baden Baden.
Going through the manuscript and letting oneself be guided by its succession of images, one begins to perceive a possible coherence that the reductive analysis of the graphic signs, aimed at decrypting the apparently unknown language, has not detected so far.
After a short fourth part of uncertain interpretation, possibly again dedicated to astrology [34], in the fifth part of the codex [35] the pages are divided into horizontal bands in which text and images are organized in recurrent modules with the same elements. At the side of the text appears a cylindrical vessel resembling an albarello, an apothecary's jar or a vial of color with engravings, gilding or other refined decorations [36]. This image is flanked by a short text of a few lines under which various plant representations appear. When compared to those in the first part of the manuscript, these plants are minute and simplified and seem to indicate the species to be used to prepare the products contained in the jars at the side of the text, rather than instructing the reader on their characteristics. They are probably icons intended to link this part of the text with the first, so that the preparators could easily identify in the first part of the Codex the products to be used for the preparation of compounds. From this point of view, the drawings in this section are functional tools, useful for the consultation and usability of the text.
The last part of the Voynich -the sixth- contrasts sharply with those described so far as it no longer contains illustrations [37]. Also made up of horizontal bands, it appears as a kind of rubric in which each entry is identified by a star in the left margin. At the end of a manuscript that contains an apparently considerable amount of information (even if indecipherable for us) such a list-like structure immediately evokes an analytical index, in which each element treated in the manuscript is mentioned, with its characteristics, the uses described in the body of the text and any other useful information, thus creating a small synopsis.
This analysis of the constituent parts of the manuscript brings out a coherence reminiscent of that of medical manuals, often carefully constructed.

[30] This part corresponds to f1r-f66v of the manuscript. At f57v-58v it includes a full-page diagram (f57v) and a folio with text on both sides (f58r/v).
[31] f61r-73v
[32] About manuscripts of this type, with their illustrations, see P.Whitfield's profusely illustrated volume "Astrology. A History", Harry N. Abrams, New York, 2001.
[33] See folii 75r-84v of the Manuscript.
[34] Folii 85r-86v
[35] Folii 87r-102v
[36] For images of pharmacy vases, see, for example, S. Rocchietta, "Antichi vasi di farmacia italiani", L'Ariete, Milano, 1986, or G.Lise "Ceramiche italiane di farmacia", Amilcare Pizzi, Cinisello Balsamo, 1987.
[37] This part corresponds to f103r-f117v (sic).

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

As always, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also is an interesting read. In particular "3.4 Meaning of the Collection of Drawings as a Whole" (p.22). This is the beginning of the paragraph, but the rest is also interesting.

Quote:Voynich stated his impression on first seeing the manuscript that "the drawings indicated it to be an encyclopedia work on natural philosophy" (1921, p.1). Elizabet Friedman says: "The 'botanical' and largest section of the manuscript (125 pages) is probably herbalistic in character, and the manuscript may constitute what is now called a pharmacopeia" (1962).
Panofsky provides another clear summary: "So far as can be made out before the manuscript has been decoded, its content would comprise: first, a general cosmological philosophy explaining the medical properties of terrestrial objects, particularly plants, by celestial influences transmitted by astral radiation and those 'spirits' which were frequently believed to transmit the occult powers of the stars to the earth; second, a kind of herbal describing the individual plants used for medicinal and conceivably, magical purposes; third, a description of such compounds as may be produced by combining individual plants in various ways" (1954, p.1). He confesses that he is unable to suggest any known medieval parallel synthesizing all of these doctrines into one compact book. (There were, in fact, a number of very large encyclopedic works of many volumes that covered a somewhat similar range of topics: an obvious example that comes to mind is the work of Albertus Magnus, a contemporary of Roger Bacon).

Panofsky's interpretation is very speculative: when he said he was not aware of any closely matching text he was basically admitting that. In my opinion, D'Imperio's reference to Albertus Magnus is not totally appropriate: Albertus wrote about everything, while Panofsky is suggesting something strictly focussed on the vegetable world.

Thanks Marco, these quotes do point in the direction of a medical compendium. I also agree that Panofsky's interpretation appears speculative, as if he did not want to dig too deep. Would it be fair to say that such remarks tend to look at the manuscript with a birds' eye view, without necessarily getting into the details? (This is not meant in a dismissive way: each perspective has its merits and most readers would probably get a cursory glance at most pages). Or, put differently, that specialists feel more confident assessing the overall themes of a section rather than getting into all the details?

I have my own thoughts on f76v. I have already written about it once on Nick. I no longer have the English version, but it works like this.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. explained once from my point of view, with pharmaceutical background.
When I look at this page, it tells a story, even if I don't understand the text.

1st picture top right. A person, probably male, is standing in a bin and scattering or receiving something. I think he/she is sowing something. ( The sowing ).

2nd image. It looks like a cap or tent. I call it the nurture. This is the time when you protect the plants from weeds, pests ( slugs, aphids, birds ). Today you would probably use nets, greenhouses, chemicals, etc. Use chemicals, etc. Symbolically possible would be an umbrella or a hand.

3rd picture. She is holding something in her hand, pointing upwards. It looks like grain. I call this the harvest.

4th image. And again she is holding something in her hand, but now it is looking down. I know from experience that herbs or tobacco are dried hanging downwards. It is also interesting that she is standing in a kind of drain. As if it were saying, this is where the water has to go. It's also nice to see in old pharmacies how the bundles of herbs are hung up. I just call it drying.

5th picture. Here she is standing in a ???, I have no idea what it could be. But the person is lifting one leg, stretching her arms away from her body. It looks as if she is stamping something. Grapes and wine come to mind. It could be that she wants to crush something here. With grain she would have to beat it to separate the wheat from the chaff.

6th picture. A person, possibly with two baskets. I see something falling out of the baskets, in three different sizes. Are they using baskets as a kind of sieve? I think there is a separation here. Example: seeds, leaves, roots. More or less in this direction.
Here it should actually go on with the processing, like grinding, grating, cutting, chopping, etc.. This is the reason why I think the Quire has a wrong sequence.

If I look at picture 1. again, how he is standing like this in his barrel and sowing something, and associate these with planting ( plants ), the step to the signs of the zodiac and the seasons with the symbolism is not far. And when I think that he even clearly defined the beginning of spring in the book, the whole VM has a harmonious flow.

The original link to my data. It's all in German, but I'm sure it has some interesting details for some people.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(23-06-2021, 10:23 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Marco, these quotes do point in the direction of a medical compendium. I also agree that Panofsky's interpretation appears speculative, as if he did not want to dig too deep.

Panofsky never contributed anything extensive about the Voynich manuscript. The fragments we have are necessarily broad and not too specific. More than an unwillingness to dig deep, I guess his problem was the impossibility of applying the method he described in "Iconography and Iconology".
His method is based on the interplay between visual and literary traditions. In the case of the Voynich, the connection with literary traditions is impossible because the text is unreadable and the images are too unique to hint to any specific textual tradition. Panofsky was perfectly aware that images are always ambiguous and image-only interpretations are unreliable.

(23-06-2021, 10:23 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would it be fair to say that such remarks tend to look at the manuscript with a birds' eye view, without necessarily getting into the details? (This is not meant in a dismissive way: each perspective has its merits and most readers would probably get a cursory glance at most pages). Or, put differently, that specialists feel more confident assessing the overall themes of a section rather than getting into all the details?

Yes, I think this could be the case. Or maybe we could say that specialists try not to write about the Voynich and (when they do) they write as little as possible.
A meaningful detailed analysis may well be impossible. This is particularly clear for the "herbal", which makes up 56% of the whole manuscript. It seems obvious that it is a herbal, but it is very difficult to say anything specific about the individual plants. Touwaide 2015 proposes a couple of specific parallels with other manuscripts (Manfredus BNF Lat 6823 and Sloane 4016); apparently he concluded that there is a connection with the Circa Instans aka De Herbis tradition, but the plants are different. I guess that going into the details for the Voynich herbal would mean tracing possible sources for most of the more than 100 large plant illustrations: again, since the images are so unique, in many cases the only options will be either speculating (something that most scholars don't particularly love) or saying nothing.
Even when the text in medieval herbals can be read, the plants are hard or sometimes impossible to identify and the origin of the text remains obscure (I am thinking in particular of the so-called Alchemical Herbal and of Trinity O.2.48). If one cannot read the text, there is not much left for meaningful discussion. I still hope that Touwaide will publish more about the subject: he is one of the very few people who can say something interesting about the Voynich herbal, under the current circumstances.

Coming back to Panofsky's and Touwaide's analyses: when comparing them, the obvious difference is that Panofsky appears to interpret Q13 as allegorical while Touwaide takes it literally. In this case, my personal preference goes to Panofsky. I also find his interpretation very logical, which is the best that can be done when speculating: the herbal and "jars" sections seem to be about plants; other pages appear to be about astrology and the cosmos; Q13 is a mystery, but one can speculate that it represents the connection between the cosmos and plants i.e. "celestial influences transmitted by astral radiation and those 'spirits' which were frequently believed to transmit the occult powers of the stars to the earth".

I was looking for whether Johannes de Rupescissa`s 'Liber de consideratione quintae essentiae' was also written in a compilation manuscript in connection with a herbal book.

In 'You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.' of the University of Salzburg ( 1438, workshop of Diepold Lauber, 5 scribes ) this is indeed the case. Unfortunately, only individual pages have been digitised, but in my opinion it is still possible to speculate about a connection with the VMS. The thematic structure is, after all, comparable.

Quote:Medical-scientific collective manuscript, therein:
Bl. 50ra-68rb = herbal book
Bl. 72r-105v = Johannes de Rupescissa: 'Liber de consideratione quintae essentiae', dt.

In addition to an extensive collection of medical recipes, this manuscript also contains astronomical treatises, works on the planets and their influence on people, as well as descriptions of the signs of the zodiac and the constellations outside the zodiac.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Ah, I remember this MS, it has one of the lobsters with legs on the tail, labelled "canter" instead of "cancer". The presence of this style of lobster alone is already a connection to the VM. There are a number of closely related MSS, see: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

On the presence of alchemy in the VM, I have no objection if it is as part of a "Medizinisch-naturwissenschaftliche Sammelhandschrift". If I understand correctly, this would be a common way to include alchemy in a 15thC work.

It is Cancer, c/t are identical, look at the nehtlich in the seond line

I have asked the Salzburg University Library by email if 'Cod. M II 180' can be viewed online in digital form in its entirety. This is the answer of the head of the special collections:

Quote:we do have a complete digitized copy of manuscript M II 180, but we do not yet have a suitable server to offer the pages open access. If you would like to purchase the digitized copy, the cost is 50 Euros.

With kind regards

Beatrix Koll

So there is hope that 'Cod. M II 180' will also be available online in the future.

So they have it sitting there in pdf or something and will send it over for 50? I guess a few people could chip in 10 euros. It would be a waste of money if there are no additional images though.

Pages: 1 2 3 4

Koen G

MarcoP

Koen G

Aga Tentakulus

MarcoP

bi3mw

Koen G

Helmut Winkler

bi3mw

Koen G