The Voynich Ninja

is this a common way to draw faces in the 15th-18thC period?

these are by Antonio de Leon y Gama (1792), Mexico.

and look very similar to voynich faces.

which could mean that they used the Voynich MS to copy the face design (possibly in Mexico or Spain).

maybe Antonio de Leon had seen it through Tepenec.

i shouldn't jump to any brash conclusions though, espcially on little sleep.

Hi, Pythagororas:

Drawing faces on the sun and the moon is very common in medieval manuscripts.  One blog commentator (at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

in a blog about the Virgin Mary standing on the moon (another possible image in the Voynich, but with Virgo)) said on this topic that

[attachment=5129]

This statement is borne out by looking at manuscripts.  At the time before, around the time of the carbon dating, and after faces on the sun and/or the moon are quite common.  When the drawing is "folk-like" the kind of face seen in is quite similar to the VM in the cosmological pages that you including in your OP.

Although far from comprehensive, here are some examples from various Western European regions (a weakness, I admit) that have been cited in relation to the VM or found in my own review of manuscripts looking for parallels to the VM imagery.  These sun and moon images are used for many different "reasons" within the pages, which I think supports the ubiquitous nature of putting faces (a type of personification) for the sun and the moon in manuscripts.  I'm sure there are many other examples, but these are the ones I could gather relatively quickly to have a response for you.

(1)[attachment=5130](2)[attachment=5131](3)[attachment=5132]

(4)[attachment=5133](5)[attachment=5134](6)[attachment=5135](7)[attachment=5136](8)[attachment=5137][attachment=5138]

Citations

1. Morgan Library, M.126 f.153v (ca. 1470, England) (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
2. British Library, Egerton MS 845 f.21v (1st half 15th century, England) 
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
3.  Bodleian Library, MS Douce 134 f.49v (1450-1470, France)
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
4. Biblio. national de France, Français 13096 f.18r (c.1313, Belgium) identified by JKP on his blog
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
5. Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Lorsbuch, MS Germ Fol. 642 f.96r (14XX, Germany) identified by JKP on his blog
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
6. British Library, Hirsch III 934 f.40v (12th Century, Austria or Germany)
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
7. Bayern-Osterreich, BSB Cgm 3974 f.114
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
8. Morgan Library, MS B.27 f.56v (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

I hope these admittedly randomly chosen examples can convince you that it is much more likely that the authors of the New World manuscript and the VM utilized the sun and moon faces through the long held and common tradition of doing so, rather than through some sort of "inspiration" from one to the other.  In other words, your provided example looks like parallel use of a long held tradition to me, rather than a direct imagery line.

(11-01-2021, 04:31 AM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Pythagororas:

Drawing faces on the sun and the moon is very common in medieval manuscripts.  One blog commentator (at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

in a blog about the Virgin Mary standing on the moon (another possible image in the Voynich, but with Virgo)) said on this topic that



This statement is borne out by looking at manuscripts.  At the time before, around the time of the carbon dating, and after faces on the sun and/or the moon are quite common.  When the drawing is "folk-like" the kind of face seen in is quite similar to the VM in the cosmological pages that you including in your OP.

Although far from comprehensive, here are some examples from various Western European regions (a weakness, I admit) that have been cited in relation to the VM or found in my own review of manuscripts looking for parallels to the VM imagery.  These sun and moon images are used for many different "reasons" within the pages, which I think supports the ubiquitous nature of putting faces (a type of personification) for the sun and the moon in manuscripts.  I'm sure there are many other examples, but these are the ones I could gather relatively quickly to have a response for you.

(1)(2)(3)

(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)

Citations

1. Morgan Library, M.126 f.153v (ca. 1470, England) (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
2. British Library, Egerton MS 845 f.21v (1st half 15th century, England) 
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
3.  Bodleian Library, MS Douce 134 f.49v (1450-1470, France)
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
4. Biblio. national de France, Français 13096 f.18r (c.1313, Belgium) identified by JKP on his blog
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
5. Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Lorsbuch, MS Germ Fol. 642 f.96r (14XX, Germany) identified by JKP on his blog
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
6. British Library, Hirsch III 934 f.40v (12th Century, Austria or Germany)
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
7. Bayern-Osterreich, BSB Cgm 3974 f.114
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
8. Morgan Library, MS B.27 f.56v (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

I hope these admittedly randomly chosen examples can convince you that it is much more likely that the authors of the New World manuscript and the VM utilized the sun and moon faces through the long held and common tradition of doing so, rather than through some sort of "inspiration" from one to the other.  In other words, your provided example looks like parallel use of a long held tradition to me, rather than a direct imagery line.

and yet the males face expression is very similar
though some of your examples are also similar.

Pythagoras, please do not include quotes that are ten times the size of your actual reply, this makes the forum very hard to browse for others. You can avoid this by using the "new reply" button or the quick reply field.

I might add that everything points towards the VM being a genuine 15th century European product. Any theory that involves America ignores scientific evidence and has been thoroughly debunked.

(11-01-2021, 06:03 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pythagoras, please do not include quotes that are ten times the size of your actual reply, this makes the forum very hard to browse for others. You can avoid this by using the "new reply" button or the quick reply field.

I might add that everything points towards the VM being a genuine 15th century European product. Any theory that involves America ignores scientific evidence and has been thoroughly debunked.

ok thank you i didnt realise i could avoid the long quote i will try to do that next time.

I also agree that the writing is a product of europe, and i dont dispute the time period.

however, the content material i think could be aztec/mexican after being brought back to europe.

Kind of like if i visited Africa and came back with their medicine magazine and told someone to write about or translate it...

You can delete anything inside a long quote that isn't relevant to your response and simply add ellipses (...) to show that parts have been left out.

I have a lot of sun and moon faces but I can't post them right now. The "weekend" never happened for me (still working), but if I can find time, I'll post them. Michelle included some nice ones that I don't think I have.


Pythagoras, another possibility is a common source. Two images in different manuscripts may trace back to a certain tradition (or a specific manuscript) while not being directly connected.

Hi Pythagoras,
You can also have a look at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. forum thread discussing similar faces.

Note the Sol de Portocarreno cathedral inscription in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which shows a fine example from the 16th century outside of manuscript tradition.

Pythagoras, could you please link to the source of any image or manuscript you reference on here, as it a)You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and b) lets other readers know what you're talking about

(11-01-2021, 06:37 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pythagoras, could you please link to the source of any image or manuscript you reference on here, as it a)You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and b) lets other readers know what you're talking about

Sorry i intended to link the sources and got distracted.

The solar calendar image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


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And the lunar one i couldnt find the official source for but can be found on alot of amateur websites:
https://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/02/around-and-about.html
https://doconversations.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/the-ancient-future-mesoamerican-and-andean-timekeeping/

Im unsure about the "official/copyright" source of lunar calendar i thought it was also the LOC but cant seem to find it now.

But the Wikipedia says they come from de Leons book:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

but i havent verified yet that the drawings are in it yet.

You can also see from the links that those two are not the only two calendar drawings.
Apparently, particular attention is given in the book they derive from,,  to the calendar stone.
The face of the calendar stone itself is what were accustomed to from the aztec drawings and isnt similar.

But the face drawings by Antonio de Leon seem to be similar and yes they could be based on a particular school or way of drawing simple faces,

If for example, you asked a random person today to draw an image of a mans face inside a calendar, i would guess that only a small % of them would resemble this face to a high degree. But if your going off another image (perhaps the VMS or some other) then you might make it similar. Or it might just be that authors style.

On the other hand it could just be coincidence cos it is a very simplified face.

I will also clarify that i have no degree of confidence that the language content is indeed primarily mexican.
Only a hunch that some of it could be. And was just drawing attention to the parallel with the face similarlity.

Everything i see in the writing points to mostly Eurasian centric.

But that is still consistent with the hypothesis that it might have been made after returning from mexico and there may also be references to aztec culture.
Its just another possibility that cant yet be ruled out i guess.

Pythagoras,
Beyond the fact that they are sun faces, I don't see that much similarity between the Antonio de Leon face and the Voynich one.
 As you note they are both very simplified but the few lines there are are different. See for example the nose: Voynich artist draws the nose as a line connecting with the eyebrow. Leon example is a wavy horizontal line highlighting the nostrils.
I don't find the Leon example any more similar than all the other sun faces listed in this thread and the other.