The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13
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I'm confused. Isn't it a finger ring?  We can see a few images with rings in the VMs, and they look quite similarly. Why do you think it isn't a ring? Besides, there is no snake, obviously. The critter which is on the cloud hardly can mean the Snake.
Would you really describe the VM "rings" as similar? 
Look at the white spot on this one, it's square, not round. 

About the critter, maybe we can agree that it is ambiguous to the extent that it cannot be identified. I would not like to make a comprehensive list of all the things it's been called...
(30-12-2020, 11:52 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would you really describe the VM "rings" as similar? 
Look at the white spot on this one, it's square, not round. 
Koen, as I understand, you consider the central spot a part of the nymph's palm.
There is no square, but the shape with one angle. Look at the outer line of the circle - it is also not ideal, it is not a circle, stricly saying, but we understand that this is a circle. It is obviously the matter of artistic accuracy: awry circles/rings, arms, palms, legs, foots, eyes, etc., but at the same time, these details may be meaningful. The second possible reason of a defect is little size of a detail and undulation of a surface.
You can ask why the ring is red. Ok. I can't answer for now, but there is no other hints to Adam and Eve's motif. Sorry. One detail that connects all the VMs rings is a gem stone (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). On the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ring, it appears to the right.

P. S. Probably, I'll continue the discussion after the New Year celebration. Now I wish good mood and health to everyone!
Happy coming New Year!
Hmm, I don't know what I'd call the central spot. But it is certainly weird compared to the other URO's (Unidentified Ringlike Objects). Below are the three items as they appear in the Beinecke scans, without any resizing. I see resemblances but also differences. 
The red one is, well, red, while the others are blank and gold (I think?) respectively. 
The bump on the red one is similar to that on the gold one. 
The red one is much more compact. It would fit almost entirely inside the hole of the other ones, and at the same time its "walls" are actually thicker

Also, strangely, the weird hand thing appears in the nymph facing this one, but again I don't know what it means, if anything. Notice how the pattern of the plant is interrupted by a white spot?

[attachment=5083]

As for the lack of a serpent and biblical imagery, I agree, it is not there. If we were not dealing with one of the world's most enigmatic cipher mysteries, I would stand firmly on your side. However, as the text does not speak plainly to us, we may expect (or at least consider) the same of the images. So I am exploring the possibility of visually encrypted narrative fragments, just like the text is encrypted. If you do not think this is a possibility, then there is nothing I can do to convince you, and that's okay Smile


(Edit: for an alchemy theory, one might consider gold-silver-copper Wink)
I think the rings are different because although they might be the same things in and of themselves, they refer ultimately to different things. 

For me they are empire rings, but each empire is different, so a different ring for each. The red one denotes the Habsbergs, the gold one refers to India, the third one would be Trebizond or the Ottoman empire if it is a ring but it may be a mirror.

I think the olive branch signifies peace, that although Lake Constance is located partially within Austria and near the Habsberg areas it is rather a gathering place as it also borders Germany and Switzerland, and was thus a point of trade between the various regions. 

[Image: 659px-Gold_Olive_Branch_Left_on_the_Moon...000070.jpg]
Gold_Olive_Branch_Left_on_the_Moon_by_Neil_Armstrong
I had not thought of the plant as an olive branch.. Somehow I always saw it as a cereal, like wheat.
(31-12-2020, 07:37 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The red one is much more compact. It would fit almost entirely inside the hole of the other ones, and at the same time its "walls" are actually thicker

All this is true. It is hard to understand where a true meaning is and where - just a casual detail. I only want to bring you to see the image from the point of view of the person which draws, and draws not too good, quite mediocre. When I try really hard, erase the wrong lines with an eraser, when I redraw from an already existing drawing, I get a pretty good picture. But if someone asks me to sketch a drawing quickly and without corrections, it will look just awful, although not as awful as in the VMs. I love to draw since childhood, but I'm not a professional artist, so my abilities haven't developed and my skills haven't been honed. I have about the same impression of the manuscript illustrator. It can be seen that he/she has the makings of drawing, but he draws rather casually, in places - very casually. The same goes for applying paints. Who knows, if he had/she tried, it might have turned out much better. It seems to me that his/her main goal was to have time to depict all the details he/she needed, and these are definitely not palms or legs. Now we can say without a doubt that the important detail in the manuscript is water or some kind of liquid, pools, barrels and pipes occupy a significant part of the manuscript, including the Zodiac part and the Rosette map.
I'll give one example, a detail of which has gone unnoticed. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains a diagram with 4 human figures. In addition to the clothes of these people and the things they hold in their hands, I was attracted by one detail - their (human) directions. It actually looks like a mess, these directions would look random if not for the direction of the fountains, which are placed exactly in the same direction as the figures. Personally, I don't know what that might mean. The version about the four tides of the equinoxes here seems the most realistic, but what do mean directions?

Quote:As for the lack of a serpent and biblical imagery, I agree, it is not there. If we were not dealing with one of the world's most enigmatic cipher mysteries, I would stand firmly on your side. However, as the text does not speak plainly to us, we may expect (or at least consider) the same of the images. So I am exploring the possibility of visually encrypted narrative fragments, just like the text is encrypted. If you do not think this is a possibility, then there is nothing I can do to convince you, and that's okay Smile

I'm not going to dissuade you and assure you that my version is more correct. There just must be at least something on which to base a hypothesis. From my point of view, this object looks more like a bad ring than a bad apple. If I could catch at least something else here, I would have thought on your version.  I fully support your idea in visually encrypted myths, but not in this case, I mean - not this story.
 Something is really encrypted here. I ask myself: why try so hard to draw bodies of water in the circle of the zodiac, diligently draw pine-cone-shaped objects, but so casually depict the details of the bodies of nymphs?
It seems to me that all information should be more holistic, not fragmentary, that is, if there are myths, there should be some kind of connecting links in order to somehow collect all this. It would reveal what the Voynich manuscript is. What is this - a compilation "A single thread from everyone -and there's a shirt for a naked one" or is it an almanac of a healer-astrologer, or something else?

Quote:(Edit: for an alchemy theory, one might consider gold-silver-copper Wink)

Thanks, I didn't think about red-copper.
Speaking of rings. 

Colette of Corbie and the Colettine Poor Clares
1) Occurs c. 1400-1450
2) Occurs (in part) in the Duchy of Burgundy
3) Supported by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy

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Quoted from above:

"St Colette had a special devotion to St John the Apostle, who appeared to her on one occasion to place a miraculous ring on her finger. As he did so, he said: "by my own right and on behalf of the sovereign King and Prince of virginity and chastity." This ring was visible to all, and was a beautiful and very precious ring of gold."

Currently, as part of her confirmation, the sister "receives a silver ring".

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(01-01-2021, 07:23 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had not thought of the plant as an olive branch.. Somehow I always saw it as a cereal, like wheat.

Hi Koen, Happy New Year!

Well I will admit it is ambiguous. If the thing she stands on is Constance, that vegetation? would be located at Bregenz, or Brigantium, depending on the time period we are talking about. I am not sure how wheat would be involved, that is why i took it as symbolic. But i will admit i see it that way with the idea/location of Constance already in mind.

(01-01-2021, 11:06 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Speaking of rings. 

Colette of Corbie 

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Happy New Year R. Sale!

Sorry but I don't see the connection to the vms with that one. What would it be saying?
Searcher Wrote:It seems to me that all information should be more holistic, not fragmentary

To be fair, if anyone had a viable holistic solution, we wouldn't be having these discussions. I think all researchers may agree on one thing: we cannot completely link Q13 to anything else we know. 

We may see hints of Balneis, but it is not the same, and there are indications against it. Q13b is probably the best superficial match here, but Q13a takes an entirely different turn.
We may suspect kinship with the alchemical tradition, but again it is not the same, and any parallels are fragmentary. 
We may suspect references to human anatomy (organs) but again convincing links to any known medieval tradition or work are rare. Moreover, this really only applies to a few folios of Q13a.
We may suspect links with maps (the green bodies of water) but the large quantities of nymphs separate it from anything else we know. And again, certain folios of Q13a make this tricky (just look at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).

So any approach will have to tackle Q13 bit by bit, and probably also focus only on one subsesction, one folio, one figure at a time. I only focus on Q13a, of which we don't even know how many pages are lost.

Most importantly, any attempt to explain Q13 will have to make some initial leap into the area of theorizing (yuk) since we know nothing like it. There are only diverse fragmented, unsatisfying, limited parallels.

I believe what binds these pages is an artificial layering of narratives. But if you ask me "what is Q13a?" I will not say "narratives"; I will say: an exercise in intentionally synthesizing information from unrelated domains. The word "exercise" should be taken in the broad sense: a personal project, or a literal exercise given in an educational context. Made for personal use or to share with others, I don't know, and it doesn't matter much right now.

Pressed for a more holistic explanation, I would say each figure (nymph) represents a point where two or three narratives meet. The nymph with the "Thing" at the top of this folio represents the Bear constellation itself (1), which sits at the "spindle" of the celestial sphere, the highest point of the sky, providing a guiding light for mariners. But also Callisto, who was turned into this very constellation (2). But now I think the religious layer here is Genesis, so this is also the point where "God's spirit" starts separating zones in the world underneath, and says: let there be light. (3)

My expectation is that on each page, two or three narratives or sequences are layered. An Ovidian layer, a Christian layer, and possibly a constellation layer (Aratus rather than Ptolemy, i.e. narrative/enumerative rather than exact astronomical). Presenting pagan stories together with Christian matter is not exceptional, in fact it is more of a rule. Either the pagan myths would be moralized, read as veiled expressions of Biblical truths. Or they would be interpreted as prefigurations of Christianity, just like they did with the Old Testament. So linking pagan myth to Christianity was not sinful - on the contrary, it made these stories acceptable. 

This was done by various authors in various (potentially conflicting) ways, but suffice to say that medieval readers/listeners consumed their ancient myths with a thick Christian sauce, whether they liked it or not. Only in schools (Latin class) Ovid would be read in the original form, since here the linguistic needs prevailed - to study the original words of the poet and their meaning.

However, I suspect that Q13a was mostly made with mnemonic purposes in mind, although I am far from certain about this. If I am correct, however, it appears to exploit some of the most important memory tricks:

- Involve a spatial component (obvious)
- Link different sequences to each other, take a sequence you know and link it to a sequence you want to learn.
- Compound images

The last part is especially interesting. It is generally known that our brain can only memorize a limited number of "items" in one sitting. However, these items don't have to be single words, they can be complex. Strange combinations are easier to remember.

Let's say you have to memorize (long term) these word: clown, sausage, green, beer, elephant, tree. You could take each word separately, but this will be hard on your long-term memory (even short term would be tricky for some). Memory retention will be much greater if you pack several words into a single item: a clown sits in a tree, juggling sausages; a green elephant sits at the bottom of the tree while chugging a bottle of beer down his raised trunk; he would really like those sausages to go with his beverage. You now only have to remember one scene, and its absurdity will help you remember these random words.

Q13a is not entirely like this example, but it may exploit some of the same principles, together with linking sequences and providing a spatial component. That's my holistic view on the matter - all subject to change, of course.
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