The Voynich Ninja

(25-08-2020, 11:45 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the time it gets to Kircher, the connection to its origin and makers is lost.

Yes, pre-Emperor Rudolf II and it starts to get interesting. If someone can say where the manuscript was in 1500 that becomes very interesting. If someone can say where the manuscript was in 1800 that is, in my opinion, much much less interesting.

The lost notebook of Barschius, that Marci sent to Kircher together with the MS, should have contained lots of potentially interesting information.
Personally, I would be less interested in his translation attempts, and much more interested in whatever he may have written down about how the MS came to Prague.

Chances that it has survived are minimal, but not exactly zero.

Mark, your approach is your option and I respect that. You are extremely focused to decipher the VMS. It is very similar with a commando having the mission to extract somebody located behind the enemy lines. Nothing else matter. 
Other people (including myself) have a more relaxed approach. The destination is important but we enjoy the journey as well. 
 My passion for VMS is a good opportunity for me to learn very interesting things related to  history, astronomy, biology, languages, linguistic, statistics etc. I like an approach with a wider perspective, without losing the focus on VMS. If one don't like this approach he must select what appreciate as relevant and ignore the rest. 
I would like to express my gratitude to all of the contributors for their effort to share ideas and for maintaining a decent discussion level.

History is a great thing. It helps to make decisions, and makes possible a probable one. Or vice versa.
As I said, I am lazy about writing. But this could be my next report.

Example: Theory of Origin. (short version)

Why does the beautiful castle (Villalta) on Rene Zandbergen's side show the Habsburg coat of arms. Connection between the VM crown and merlons.
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History: 1363 The Duchy of Bavaria loses the last county south of the Alps to Habsburg through the Treaty of Succession.
This could be a reference to the German text in the VM. Even the dialect would be correct.
At the same time, the state border was at the Mühlbacher Klause before the transfer.
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Event data between 1400 and 1430 are endless.
1406 Introduction of the Habsburg Law, liberation of the population from the Wilkür of the landed nobility (all are equal before the law)

This or others could explain why the crown was later inscribed.

Around 1400 the German language was much more southern than today. The entry of the Italian came only around 1700. Activated.
Contemporary witnesses confirm this. e.g. travelogue Göthe.

History is simply a great thing.

@Rene

Sorry if I used your website again without asking.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

(26-08-2020, 08:36 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Rene

Sorry if I used your website again without asking.

You are welcome. That is what it is meant for.

Note that the castle of Villalta was shown for a specific purpose. It is one case where we have a drawing of the castle from the 15th century and a picture how it looks now. This is to show that the drawing is quite different from present reality. There is no other connection with the Voynich MS.

I can only stress what Rene says.
The castle (Villalta) has no direct connection with the Voynich manuscript.

It simply makes it fascinating.
This is exactly how I stopped looking for the VM castle. There were about 300 in the area.
It is just as interesting where the castle stands when you look at it linguistically.
Here 4 languages come together. Italian, German, Slavic, and Ladin. Possibly still Rhaeto-Romanic.
With the possibility of Latin, there are even 6 languages.

In addition to this, there is the influence of the orthodox church.

One could not have chosen a better place for the creation of the VM. 

I have decided I backed down from my position of how important the later intermediary locations too quickly.  I'm starting a new thread in Provenance to discuss my most recent thoughts.

(25-08-2020, 05:39 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is not so easy *not* to have a theory

It actually means to have rejected one's theory (or theories) because they turned out not to be tenable.

It is the easiest thing in the world *not* to have a theory. I know very many people who have no theory whatsoever about the Voynich manuscript.

Having a theory does *not* mean that one hasn't arrived at that theory by rejecting theories that do not appear tenable.

Having a theory can mean saying this is my theory, but it could be wrong, but presenting a possibility which could inspire others and marks an exploration of the solution space and another possible line of enquiry.

Not presenting a theory could be seen as cowardess, allowing one to criticise the ideas of others without risking any criticism of one's own ideas, so appearing to display intellectual superiority whilst really showing intellectual weakness.

Not having a theory is not an achievement or a sign of wisdom, it is merely not having a theory. So, for example, saying that one has studied the Voynich for more than 20 years and produced no theory is not an indication or brilliance, but rather one of failure.

(26-08-2020, 07:41 AM)zamolxe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, your approach is your option and I respect that. You are extremely focused to decipher the VMS. It is very similar with a commando having the mission to extract somebody located behind the enemy lines. Nothing else matter. 
Other people (including myself) have a more relaxed approach. The destination is important but we enjoy the journey as well. 
 My passion for VMS is a good opportunity for me to learn very interesting things related to  history, astronomy, biology, languages, linguistic, statistics etc. I like an approach with a wider perspective, without losing the focus on VMS. If one don't like this approach he must select what appreciate as relevant and ignore the rest. 
I would like to express my gratitude to all of the contributors for their effort to share ideas and for maintaining a decent discussion level.

How you or anyone approaches the Voynich is your or their choice, I was just presenting my perspective. There is a lot of focus on Wilfred Voynich, Newbold, Krauss etc. and for me there is almost no interest in these people or the modern history of the manuscript and its owners. But for some people these are very interesting topics.

(30-08-2020, 07:07 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not having a theory is not an achievement or a sign of wisdom, it is merely not having a theory. So, for example, saying that one has studied the Voynich for more than 20 years and produced no theory is not an indication or brilliance, but rather one of failure.

It is extraordinarily easy to be researching under the heavy shadow of a theory (or indeed several theories) without even realising it.

For example, anyone who is trying to work out some kind of linguistic or phonetic take on Voynichese has already taken on (implicitly) ten or fifteen theories about various Voynichese behaviours in order to get to that point. Deciding that Voynichese behaviour X, Y or Z is not important is already three theories. (Fill in X, Y, and Z how you like).