The Voynich Ninja

Peter Bakker Wrote:Why are there no corrections in the manuscript?

Whenever I see this, I know the person has not really looked at the manuscript. There are lots of corrections.

I noticed that many of the introductory comments made by Bakker are based on the underlying assumption that the characters map one-to-one. For example, his comments on word length and the different characteristics of vowel-consonant languages and abjads would not be valid if the text were numbers or if it were a verbose cipher.

Quote:Of course, one has to remember that it is a medieval language, which may have been quite different from the language it evolved into (medieval Dutch and English, for example, are almost unreadable to modern speakers).

I'm not sure why he writes that medieval languages "may have been quite different". They were different, although I find medieval German easier to read (compared to modern German) than medieval English and French. It seems to have changed less. I struggle with medieval French (even though I can read modern French better than modern German, I find medieval German easier than medieval French). I find it especially difficult to read some of the southern French medieval dialects.

(03-08-2020, 08:42 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:in most languages, for example, no word can end in -tr

Interestingly, in Russian there are words ending with "-tr". They are all borrowed and omit the "e" present in other languages. E.g. theatre, centre, sceptre and Burgermeister all end with "-tr" in Russian.

I didn't know this, Anton, but it is helpful information.


I was also thinking, as I was reading this part of Bakker's article, that letters with a tail (such as the ones that look like r, s, m, and g) very frequently represented abbreviations in medieval scribal conventions, which calls into question assumptions about word length and whether the tail might represent missing letters (like "e" or "er" or "ius"). Bakker didn't mention this possibility.

Peter Bakker Wrote: On the other hand, researchers have also observed that certain letters are much more frequent in some parts of the text, and even to such an extent that it is suspicious. This is typically found in fake language.

I agree that the positional characteristics of Voynichese are highly suspicious, but certain cipher systems also have positional characteristics, so there might be reasons for the patterns other than "fake language".

Quote:And not only learned people have tried. Various nuts and cranks have made their attempts as well, and some even got their papers published in respected journals. These people have made some outrageous claims as well, not hindered by any form of knowledge.

I think we can agree with this.

Quote:If you ask me, I believe that it is a very clever practical joke, a hoax, probably from the 15thcentury, the same date as the vellum and the ink. If it would have been a real language, in a rational and regular writing system, experts would have figured it out by now.

It is possible that the text is meaningless. But that does not automatically mean it was a hoax. Maybe the VMS is a draft copy of a manuscript that was eventually intended to be made into a more professional version and perhaps the actual text would be added when the final version was created. Or maybe the text is referential (refers to another manuscript that has not been found or which has been destroyed). Maybe it is a symbolic language. Maybe it is steganographic and the actual content is only a percentage of what we see.

Even if it is meaningless, I think there is still value in being able to describe how the text was laid down because it is clearly not random, it is quite systematic, and unraveling that system might open up text analysis techniques that do not yet exist.


If the text were a one-to-one substitution cipher (as most people assume), it would have been deciphered by now. If it were a natural language with only a few characters changed (e.g., "gallows") it would have been read by now (regardless of the language). It is something else and there is something to be learned by trying to determine its nature.

(03-08-2020, 10:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the VMS is a draft copy of a manuscript that was eventually intended to be made into a more professional version and perhaps the actual text would be added when the final version was created.

Are there any other examples or precedents of this practice? It seems a bit far fetched, and I have seen several people commenting on it.

(03-08-2020, 11:10 PM)aStobbart Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-08-2020, 10:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the VMS is a draft copy of a manuscript that was eventually intended to be made into a more professional version and perhaps the actual text would be added when the final version was created.

Are there any other examples or precedents of this practice? It seems a bit far fetched, and I have seen several people commenting on it.

Yes, here's an example discussed in: 
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For example, Cosmas of Prague (d. 1125) wrote separate prefaces or dedications to the first two books of the Chronica Bohemorum, which he clearly circulated among friends before putting together the three libri of his chronicle.9


9 See Cosmas of Prague, Chronica Bohemorum. The Chronicle of the Czechs, J. M. Bak, P. Rychterová, eds. (Budapest–New York: CEU Press, 2017); see also Lisa Wolverton, Cosmas of Prague: Narrative, classicism, politics (Washington D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 2015)

Although I admit this seems more like"beta readers"at a time before copy machines than a full blown, non-final version.

Regarding possibility of VMS being a draft version..

(03-08-2020, 11:10 PM)aStobbart Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
Are there any other examples or precedents of this practice? It seems a bit far fetched, and I have seen several people commenting on it.

Which people have commented on it? I would be interested in seeing the comments.

1. The f116 thread on this site is much more thorough (though a final (or even an interim) consensus would be nice!)
2. He seems unaware that Chinese has indeed been a serious suggestion
3 In his defence though, he did say at the outset that it was just his own take, so fair enough I guess.

(03-08-2020, 08:42 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:in most languages, for example, no word can end in -tr

Interestingly, in Russian there are words ending with "-tr". They are all borrowed and omit the "e" present in other languages. E.g. theatre, centre, sceptre and Burgermeister all end with "-tr" in Russian.

Petr is a common name in many slavic countries. There was a Voynich researcher in Holland some years ago with that name.
Thai has many words ending in -tr , though neither of the two consonants is pronounced (at most a half-heard t). These words usually derive from Sanskrit. "Mitr" means friend (sounds like "mit").
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(disclaimer: I have no commercial interests with this particular restaurant).
"jantr" means moon  (sounds like "jan").