The Voynich Ninja

(03-06-2020, 10:18 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-06-2020, 09:55 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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Where does the sequence start? According to the Zodiac Man, Pisces represent the feet. The problem is with the structure, not with the VMs representation.

Yes, interesting point.

If the focus of the VMS is medical (including the zodiac section), and if it followed the anatomical relationships of the constellations to the body parts, then the sequence would quite likely start with Aries (head) or Pisces (feet).

If Aries, it works its way down. However, if it starts with Pisces, then it would have to rotate up to the head again and work down in order to follow the traditional sequence.

It's a zodiac!  Zodiac is cirular, man is straight up and down. If the Zodiac Man eats his feet and becomes an ouroboros, the sequence will go round forever, start where you like?

Bunny

There is not "a zodiac" in the VM. A Zodiac is one image that contains the twelve signs. What we see in the VM appears as a possibly incomplete series of month emblems, each on a separate page, surrounded by human figures. 

You can hypothesize that they use the signs of the Zodiac, or the constellations on the ecliptic, or probably many other things. But what is simply not there, is "a Zodiac".

I generally think of the VMS drawings as zodiac figures. I don't know if there are any zodiacs in the VMS.


The most common month emblems were the months' labors. It was only later that they started adding the zodiac figures to calendars. Some of them had one or the other, many had both.

The monthly labors had a practical purpose, to remind people of which tasks to conduct. Zodiac-figures were added to calendars as a month-mnemonic to dress up the page. They were especially popular between the late 1100s and the 1600s.


Zodiac man is more medical-astrological than astronomical. It diagrammed which part of the body was influenced by specific constellations. I suppose it was partly astronomical, since they were cautioned to treat only certain parts of the body when the associated constellation was visible or prominent, but they probably didn't wait for months or a whole year to perform certain procedures (like pulling a rotten tooth).

You could certainly go from the feet to the head, since Aries follows Pisces, but it would be a bit counter-intuitive to start at the bottom and then swing up to the head before passing through the other signs. Not impossible, though.

JKP, are you certain about that explanation? I only looked at the first handful of results on google so I'm not certain myself, but the most common explanation appears to be that the Zodiac man has nothing to do with the constellations. Rather, it was about the location of the moon: if the moon was in the sign corresponding to the affected body part, it was unsafe for bloodletting. So bloodletting was okay most of the time, unless the moon happened to be in the relevant sign. 

Either way it is important to understand that the signs have no relation whatsoever to observation of the constellations. Because of precession, the original constellations have drifted far away from the signs. Moreover the signs are 12 equal divisions, while constellations vary considerably in size.

Koen, that sounds like vein man. Vein man was for bloodletting.

Here's vein man combined with lunar charts:



Zodiac man illustrated which zodiac sign was associated with which part of the body (Aries head, Pisces feet, etc.). It was somewhat associated with bloodletting, but not specifically, other medical procedures were included.


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I agree with you that the signs and the constellations were out of synch with each other. There were actually 13 constellations, but only 12 zodiac signs included in the zodiac series (each with 30 degrees) to fit with the medieval sense of "order". Ophiucus was omitted.

It wasn't just influence of the moon, the ruling planet was also considered and there were charts showing which of the zodiac signs was associated with each ruling planet. I took a look at the Wikipedia article and it seems to have oversimplified some of this in favor of the moon and perhaps even confused some of the vein man information with zodiac man.


I also agree that the connection between zodiac signs and constellations was tenuous, but they did consider constellations and ruling planets to be connected to plants, to parts of the body, and to the best times for certain procedures, even if it was a very muddy and poorly informed understanding.

Take out the VM "astrological symbol" folios (where are those darn missing folios?) stick them together and join in a circle - zodiac.  It depends whether you are looking for a classical "zodiac picture", a calendar, an astrological monthly forecast, a depiction of the sky, precession, an image that has just been prettied up etc.   How it's presented may not be the biggest question.  What is anyone actually looking for in those folios?

Bunny

(04-06-2020, 12:29 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is not "a zodiac" in the VM. A Zodiac is one image that contains the twelve signs. What we see in the VM appears as a possibly incomplete series of month emblems, each on a separate page, surrounded by human figures. 

You can hypothesize that they use the signs of the Zodiac, or the constellations on the ecliptic, or probably many other things. But what is simply not there, is "a Zodiac".

JKP
It seems not everyone would in fact agree on the definition of a linear zodiac being a zodiac.  In ordinary circumstances face value may be the whole story but in a manuscript where the text may be coded, by any number of degrees of manipulation, the rest of it may also be.  Zodiac or not, linear or circular, illustrating one thing while referring in fact to another, heraldry, astronomy, planting seasons, who knows?  Is what is seen really what is meant?  Can a zodiac be like both linear and circular like the duel nature of light being a particle and a wave?  Are the folios meant to be manipulated to be "decoded"?  I suppose a lot of that depends on whether the manuscript is actually modern or old, real or fake, and there are many conflicting views about that one.  A bit like Schrodinger's cat, could be anything in the meantime.  

Time though is always linear, the past disintegrated, the future unformed, the sequence of seasons only exist because we have the expectation it will happen as we believe it always has.  We only exist in the present, the future a projection of the memory of the past giving us the belief that tomorrow will also exist.  

Bunny

Well, Koen can respond to that since he made several points.


Personally, I don't see the VMS series as a zodiac. It's a series of 10 zodiac-inspired symbols with other elements on each page.

I do see the internal characters as being modeled after zodiac figures, but "zodiac figures" and a "zodiac" are not the same thing. Sagittarius is a zodiac figure, but it's not a zodiac. The VMS archer might be Sagittarius, or it might be something else.


I don't know what the VMS series represents and I don't know if the folios were ever intended to include more than 10 different figures. Hopefully, with time, the intention will be revealed.

Properly speaking, in astrology there is no such thing as "a zodiac". There is only "the zodiac" (singular), which is the narrow belt of the heavens above the ecliptic. The Zodiac is divided into twelve divisions or signs. The Zodiac of the planets refers to the intersection of the planet with the Zodiac.

When we see a "zodiac" in a manuscript, we are usually looking at a zodiac wheel. If they are on different pages, then we most likely are no longer looking at a zodiac wheel, but instead some sort of calendar or other daily life association of horoscopy (ie medicine).

This is what we see with Zodiac man. He is a practical use of astrology within medicine. Different traditions gave different interpretations to the "rules", but he established a framework within which the doctor could practice medicine. It was codified enough so that a doctor who ignored the "rules" could later be prosecuted if the "operation" went bad for malpractice. (I imagine that the rules developed for the opposite case - a doctor who stuck to the astrology rules would be immune from malpractice claims).


Here's the extract for Piscis from Amsterdam University Special Collections Library MS XXIII A 8 (translator Irene Meekes van Toer). It's from the Solar Zodiologium – prognostications when the sun is in each of the signs of the zodiac. In the manuscript we see different zodiac signs spread over different pages with general advice for each date:

Quote:Piscis belongs to the north, and is good for a lot of things. One can build new houses, and move into them. One can sow, plant, and have intercourse. One can do all things that have to do with water, such as building dikes and building watermills to take and to give away. But one should not take medicine for one’s feet, and one should not do anything that has to do with fire. One can battle and fight, and hold court days, buy or sell land, horses and other things. And it is good nor bad to let blood from the arms.