The Voynich Ninja

I came across an interesting image on Getty Images:

Representation of a zodiac with in the centre the sun surronded by signs of the zodiac, illumination from a latin manuscript, Romanesque period (12th 13th century) 

"Sorronded" correct for search!

It shows pisces as a Wyrm dragon eating a fish.  Inference - fish can represent dragons and dragons represent fish.  Is Voynich woman being eaten by a fish being eaten by a dragon?  Do the dragon like creatures in the VM represent Pisces?

Bunny

Hi Bunny,
Please link to an image when you are discussing it, otherwise we can't keep up with you!
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It's a representation of the ancient Greek myth that led to the two fish being used to represent Piscis. It's a sea-centaur bringing Aphrodite back onto land after she escaped the god who was after her. The Pisces myth is that Aphrodite and her son turned into fish to escape the unwanted attention of some god or other whose name escaped me. They got lost in the water but were saved by the sea-centaurs.

Zeus was so impressed that he immortalised their great escape in the skies as the double fish - the line between them indicates the familial link.

Very ancient texts do sometimes use this imagery, linking the myth, until the two fish supplanted them.

Any indications as to where this was made? Might it be from a source where this version of Pisces was still preserved by tradition?

We discussed this MS before, but I don't recall this explanation. Do you have a source, David, or is this what you think is the best explanation? As far as I know, this is a unique depiction of Pisces.

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(02-06-2020, 08:54 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Bunny,
Please link to an image when you are discussing it, otherwise we can't keep up with you!
I assume it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?

It's a representation of the ancient Greek myth that led to the two fish being used to represent Piscis. It's a sea-centaur bringing Aphrodite back onto land after she escaped the god who was after her. The Pisces myth is that Aphrodite and her son turned into fish to escape the unwanted attention of some god or other whose name escaped me. They got lost in the water but were saved by the sea-centaurs.

Zeus was so impressed that he immortalised their great escape in the skies as the double fish - the line between them indicates the familial link.

Very ancient texts do sometimes use this imagery, linking the myth, until the two fish supplanted them.

Yes correct one.  Here in UK much less freedom reg. images so sometimes just describe and hope for the best!  Says C12-13th so this particular manuscript is a bit late for ancient Greek Typhon the goat fish. In a way the Typhon myth embraces Capricorn (goat)  -> Aquarius (water) -> water goat -> Pisces (water goat +fish) -> Pisces fish.  Also, Capricorn "The Goat fish" in the Babylonian zodiac at place of winter solstice, Aquarius "the great one" (EA water god), Pisces bird related, though a "fish cord" managed to get in there too.  

For imagery purposes the Getty one looks more like a European medieval dragon.  VM You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows a woman being devoured by a fish, being devoured by a dragon alternatively is not without precedent.

Bunny

Clealy a fish is depicted so no conflict with the face value imagary and she does look like she is standing inside the fish.  What was the intention to show?  Can there be more than one or a coded/hidden intention given the whole text is pretty much hidden from interpretation?   Is the obvious interpretation the right one?  

Regarding the Babylonian zodiac and this theme, Pisces is related to the "Exalted bird/great swallow", the "fish rope" and "lady of heaven/Anuitu/Innana".  VM f86v3 involves birds and figures, maybe Pisces a consideration on that folio via "bird" rather than "dragon" or "fish".  Also, the fish rope was possibly the rivers Euphrates and Tigris - complete with fish given being the "fish rope".  Could that make VM Pisces/dargon/fish/bird folios possible maps or considerations of Pisces?  Given that VM f86v3 shows a T/O map type orientation inclusion nothing is out of the realms of possibilty.

The Greek mythclealy does not cover all historical aspects of Pisces, and while the nymph may be just stepping out of the fish there are probably many alternatives also.

Bunny

This is the original manuscript: BNF, MS Lat. 7028 - the zodiac circle is on f. 154r. There is a black and white digitisation available on BNFGallica here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The MS was apparently made in what is now central Italy according to the BNF website. The MS is a composite, the sections at the back of the MS have completely different ruling and page spacing (see f. 136r for the most obvious example of this), and different scribes, which implies that when they were made they were either loose booklets of quires, or intended for a different bound codex - this is very normal for medical manuscripts at this time. There is a colophon on f. 133v. I googled the colophon because it looked interesting and it is believed to have been written by antiPope John XVI (d. 1001) for his pupil the young Holy Roman Emperor Otto III (d. 1002), so the first section of the manuscript must have existed before the year 1001. The hands in the later sections look similar in terms of style so I think the whole thing including the diagrams in the later section are unlikely to be much later than c. 1050, but it's difficult to date Italian examples of Carolingian minuscule because the script was much more stable in Italy than it was in north-western Europe so Italian hands can look like that up to 1100 or even a few decades beyond.

I recall when we first discussed this folio, the most likely answer was that the Pisces were probably copied from something like a planisphere, and the nearby constellation of Cetus (which was sometimes drawn like a dog-hybrid) was accidentally copied instead of (or merged with) the fish.

@Koen, no reference I'm afraid, just it triggered some memories when I looked at it.

Kircher in his Oedipus Egypticus (mid 1600's) used the same imagery, he was linking the original zodiac back to the Greek myths via the Egyptians. Admittedly this has nothing to do with the image under discussion!


Admittedly it doesn't make much sense to do it like that, as the stars make up two fishes and you run the risk of confusing it with Sagittarius. But there's no doubt it is a sea centaur (ichthyocentaur).

Maybe the bloke just liked horses?