11-02-2020, 11:59 PM
![[Image: hermaphrodite.png]](https://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/hermaphrodite.png)
12-02-2020, 12:36 AM
I don't know if anyone has a literal "soul" theory. As I said I would personally go with "embodiments", and then it doesn't matter whether the embodiment is male, female or both.
What I believe is that sometimes they needed to embody something that was inherently male, but there was always a pull towards the feminine side for the physical representation, which is why we ended up with a few men, many women and an undetermined number of "it's complicated".
I believe it could help us a lot if we understood why the tendency to draw women was so strong that there are more gender-confused figures in the MS than unambiguous men.
What I believe is that sometimes they needed to embody something that was inherently male, but there was always a pull towards the feminine side for the physical representation, which is why we ended up with a few men, many women and an undetermined number of "it's complicated".
I believe it could help us a lot if we understood why the tendency to draw women was so strong that there are more gender-confused figures in the MS than unambiguous men.
12-02-2020, 12:48 AM
(12-02-2020, 12:36 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe it could help us a lot if we understood why the tendency to draw women was so strong that there are more gender-confused figures in the MS than unambiguous men.
What if the culture which produced the VMS was a culture, in which the rights of men and women were equal or in which women even were the leading gender?
12-02-2020, 04:04 AM
The first time I looked through the VMS, I thought "Pagan". Pagan society was very much inclined toward goddess worship, as was much of early Christian society. Worship of Mary the Virgin (which is stronger in some areas than others) is said by quite a number of historians to be a transitional effect of Pagan-to-Christian beliefs. There were still quite a few Pagan pockets in medieval times. In fact, there are recorded exoduses of people from regions where Christianity was being enforced because they didn't want to give up their existing beliefs.
I still often wonder if it is Pagan, but for slightly different reasons. The emphasis on Pagan-like illustrations might be because there is Pagan-era content (Greco-Roman), rather than reflecting the beliefs of whoever created the VMS, but over the years, I began to to lean toward viewing the nymphs not as human, but as overseers and explainers.
And then I had to re-consider my views again because Koen's discussions about the Arma Christi opened up a whole new can of worms that I had only barely explored (I had looked pretty extensively into Agnus Dei, but not much else), and then I realized more and more that souls, sprites, bathers, in other words, certain "classes" of humanoids in medieval illustrations, were typically drawn nude to show their status, either in terms of what they were or what they were doing.
I still often wonder if it is Pagan, but for slightly different reasons. The emphasis on Pagan-like illustrations might be because there is Pagan-era content (Greco-Roman), rather than reflecting the beliefs of whoever created the VMS, but over the years, I began to to lean toward viewing the nymphs not as human, but as overseers and explainers.
And then I had to re-consider my views again because Koen's discussions about the Arma Christi opened up a whole new can of worms that I had only barely explored (I had looked pretty extensively into Agnus Dei, but not much else), and then I realized more and more that souls, sprites, bathers, in other words, certain "classes" of humanoids in medieval illustrations, were typically drawn nude to show their status, either in terms of what they were or what they were doing.
12-02-2020, 10:08 AM
(12-02-2020, 12:48 AM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What if the culture which produced the VMS was a culture, in which the rights of men and women were equal or in which women even were the leading gender?
A solution like this is proposed regularly, but I always have my doubts about it. For example, Chaucer wrote "The Legend of good women" in 14th century England. Just because a work contains mostly women doesn't mean it was written by a woman, or in a particularly feminist or matriarchal society.
12-02-2020, 10:08 AM
I assume that the persons where drawn are symbolic of plants.
Whether with or without clothes.
Whereby the clothing indicates the temporal status of the plant to the year.
That would also make sense why they are mostly female. So I assume he knew about male and female plants.
FOR EXAMPLE. Cannabis, conifers.
Or, in the case of saffron, only the male parts are used.
Here I see a logical explanation. ( Monözie )
Whether with or without clothes.
Whereby the clothing indicates the temporal status of the plant to the year.
That would also make sense why they are mostly female. So I assume he knew about male and female plants.
FOR EXAMPLE. Cannabis, conifers.
Or, in the case of saffron, only the male parts are used.
Here I see a logical explanation. ( Monözie )
19-04-2020, 10:42 PM
On the nymphs as "souls", here are some souls in hell from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a c.1370 manuscript of Dante. The poet and his guide are shown observing various groups of sinners and their punishments in the afterlife.
[attachment=4220]
Most of these spirits appear male though, women are only shown when explicitly required I think.
[attachment=4220]
Most of these spirits appear male though, women are only shown when explicitly required I think.
19-04-2020, 11:09 PM
Most of these spirits appear male though, women are only shown when explicitly required I think.
The women were probably already punished enough with marriage. Consideration for double punishment
The women were probably already punished enough with marriage. Consideration for double punishment
13-01-2021, 08:39 AM
I interpret it as an antiquarian metamyth where the virgin nymphs represent nature/mother-nature.
We talk about virgin forests, so i think its also possible that they are symbolic of forests, and so they are linked by the waterways.
These water nymphs were present in ancient Greek myths and pagan and celtic myths of Europe.
The mother nature myth being prevalent across all the world before more masculine religions replaced them.
Its also possible they represent ghosts of the underworld as a portrayal of the myth of Persophene and her decent into the underworld.
We talk about virgin forests, so i think its also possible that they are symbolic of forests, and so they are linked by the waterways.
These water nymphs were present in ancient Greek myths and pagan and celtic myths of Europe.
The mother nature myth being prevalent across all the world before more masculine religions replaced them.
Its also possible they represent ghosts of the underworld as a portrayal of the myth of Persophene and her decent into the underworld.
14-01-2021, 10:11 PM
(11-02-2020, 11:59 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It should be noted that there is at least one hermaphrodite between all the nymphs ( folio f72r1, outer ring, position at 12 o'clock ). This speaks against the "soul-theory".Could be a placenta... I would think that would be more acceptable than a hermaphrodite.