26-07-2019, 07:04 PM
26-07-2019, 08:12 PM
Koen, possibly if they were trying to save Christian imagery from being destroyed then they might hide it. The Ottomans were already travelling down the Danube before the time of the vms carbon dating, the Ottoman Venetian wars started in 1396.
JKP, i see the loges and rainbows in quire 13 as cartographic in nature, as marshes or shoreline and river systems respectively. If you remove the nymphs, it all seems far more geographical than Christian in its imagery. If you keep the nymphs and remove the other imagery it still doesn't seem Christian. I see the nymphs not as angels but as standing for the history of human habitation in their respective locations, ie more earthly than heavenly, and yet probably much of this history speaks of those no longer alive at the time, so in that sense somewhat spiritlike. If the dead become angels then yes maybe angels. Given that the zodiac nymphs hold stars, i see the nymphs not as stars themselves, but perhaps locations with which those stars are aligned. As Koen stated in a comment on his blog recently, "they appear to communicate what they must through pose, attributes, and relative location".
R. Sale, the Agnus dei/golden fleece aspect of the creature does call to me, it had once been my preferred identification but now i feel it really looks more goatlike than sheeplike. However they may both be indicated, in my interpretation the ibex and the lamb would stand for the mountain and the valley, the yin and the yang, and so i carry it along with the ibex to stand for the entire northern Italian region as we know it today, since of course the alps do not simply stand alone but are integrated with the rest of the geography around it. The version of the sixth seal that you have seen your structure in seems to stand pretty much alone in using that particular structure, and i find that somewhat compelling, its age, and the familial connections with its owner fit in with other political happenings of the time that could be referenced in its inclusion within the imagery. I find it coincidental that the sixth seal is all about earthquakes and other apocalyptic happenings, including kings and men hiding in the mountains, i know it isn't part of the structure you are concerned with, but it fits in with mine.
JKP, i see the loges and rainbows in quire 13 as cartographic in nature, as marshes or shoreline and river systems respectively. If you remove the nymphs, it all seems far more geographical than Christian in its imagery. If you keep the nymphs and remove the other imagery it still doesn't seem Christian. I see the nymphs not as angels but as standing for the history of human habitation in their respective locations, ie more earthly than heavenly, and yet probably much of this history speaks of those no longer alive at the time, so in that sense somewhat spiritlike. If the dead become angels then yes maybe angels. Given that the zodiac nymphs hold stars, i see the nymphs not as stars themselves, but perhaps locations with which those stars are aligned. As Koen stated in a comment on his blog recently, "they appear to communicate what they must through pose, attributes, and relative location".
R. Sale, the Agnus dei/golden fleece aspect of the creature does call to me, it had once been my preferred identification but now i feel it really looks more goatlike than sheeplike. However they may both be indicated, in my interpretation the ibex and the lamb would stand for the mountain and the valley, the yin and the yang, and so i carry it along with the ibex to stand for the entire northern Italian region as we know it today, since of course the alps do not simply stand alone but are integrated with the rest of the geography around it. The version of the sixth seal that you have seen your structure in seems to stand pretty much alone in using that particular structure, and i find that somewhat compelling, its age, and the familial connections with its owner fit in with other political happenings of the time that could be referenced in its inclusion within the imagery. I find it coincidental that the sixth seal is all about earthquakes and other apocalyptic happenings, including kings and men hiding in the mountains, i know it isn't part of the structure you are concerned with, but it fits in with mine.
26-07-2019, 10:31 PM
(26-07-2019, 07:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why would anyone dechristianize Christian scenes in the most Christian time and place in history though?
I have no idea. None at all. There were still pockets of Pagans. The Basques were still Pagan. Some were so deeply tied to their religion than they fled their homes when the powers-that-be made efforts to convert them. The same happened with Christians-against-Christians in the Counter-Reformation...
... but it was largely a Christian society, so Christians had little to hide (other than non-Christian or "heretical" scientific thoughts).
I wondered for a while if it might be a Messianic or voluntarily-converted Jew, who might hide it from fellow Jews, but I really don't know.
I often reflect back on the comment the medieval doctor made to his daughter when she asked him why bother enciphering things and one of his responses was that it gave information more value (and more mystique).
26-07-2019, 10:55 PM
Right, I'd think that washing Christian imagery off of the images would have made them more likely to raise suspicion...
..which apparently they didn't because we still have this thing.
In my opinion the explanation for apparently de-christianized Christian motifs could be a simpler one. It is clear that the illustrator relied on various examples he had at his disposal. Marco showed this convincingly for Balneis. And we're coming closer to what the source(s) for the Zodiac centres should have been like. We know they copied and re-assembled.
So why not borrow bits and pieces from imagery that happened to be Christian? It would have been in plentiful supply...
..which apparently they didn't because we still have this thing.
In my opinion the explanation for apparently de-christianized Christian motifs could be a simpler one. It is clear that the illustrator relied on various examples he had at his disposal. Marco showed this convincingly for Balneis. And we're coming closer to what the source(s) for the Zodiac centres should have been like. We know they copied and re-assembled.
So why not borrow bits and pieces from imagery that happened to be Christian? It would have been in plentiful supply...
27-07-2019, 12:52 AM
There's another option regarding omission of christian imagery: if the Voynich was meant to be a portable book used by a traveller (a hypothesis compatible with size and foldouts), it may have been made for travel to lands where christianity was not the dominant religion, and therefore the creators may have thought it best to keep the illustrations free of explicit religious references.
I don't think this is likely, but it is an option.
I don't think this is likely, but it is an option.
27-07-2019, 02:23 PM
27-07-2019, 06:58 PM
Apples and oranges. If the menorah is just a candelabra it's not even religious.
28-07-2019, 12:36 AM
All sorts of classical influences were present. Christine de Pisan's "the Knight's Book" (IIRC) has several illustrations of classical deities seated on rainbows. Rainbows are another maker of divinity, along with cloud-bands and the vesica piscis.
Having the date, location and author for the "Apocalypse of S. Jean" should give us a good reference point, but it doesn't seem to help so far. There are various apocalyptic illustrations that have some similar elements, but as yet no confirming image that has all three elements: Lamb / cosmic boundary / droplets. How did Colin Chadelve get that idea? And how did something very similar get into the VMs??
I do not believe the sheep / goat differentiation comes into play for the VMs representation. Ambiguity is close enough.
I don't subscribe to the 'dechristianization' hypothesis. I believe the VMs was intentionally made to look 'foreign', as in being produced by a culture which would be unfamiliar to one and all, as seen at the time of its creation. And as such, its solution, though tempting and taunting, is practically impossible. It is only through finding certain, hidden clues which fit with traditional knowledge that our understanding can be expanded. Some of these are religious, but may also be historical or scientific (cosmos).
Persons in the time of the VMs parchment dates have two potentially significant differences from modern investigators. They could well be more familiar with the traditions of their time and less demanding in their standards of "proof'. What we see as potential / debatable signs, indicators or suggestions were to them clear evidence of connection. And so these clues were hidden and disguised by the VMs artist. And what might have appeared to them as potential signs, indicators or suggestions often appear to us as ambiguous, unclear, unknown and unseen. Recently, however, certain examples seem to indicate potential rules for VMs illustrations: Maintain traditional structure and follow the pattern; Maximize visual diversity using ambiguity and disguise.
In this way, those who rely solely on superficial appearance and visual similarity will fail. The path to understanding is found in the similarity of structure, which is the underlying reality.
Having the date, location and author for the "Apocalypse of S. Jean" should give us a good reference point, but it doesn't seem to help so far. There are various apocalyptic illustrations that have some similar elements, but as yet no confirming image that has all three elements: Lamb / cosmic boundary / droplets. How did Colin Chadelve get that idea? And how did something very similar get into the VMs??
I do not believe the sheep / goat differentiation comes into play for the VMs representation. Ambiguity is close enough.
I don't subscribe to the 'dechristianization' hypothesis. I believe the VMs was intentionally made to look 'foreign', as in being produced by a culture which would be unfamiliar to one and all, as seen at the time of its creation. And as such, its solution, though tempting and taunting, is practically impossible. It is only through finding certain, hidden clues which fit with traditional knowledge that our understanding can be expanded. Some of these are religious, but may also be historical or scientific (cosmos).
Persons in the time of the VMs parchment dates have two potentially significant differences from modern investigators. They could well be more familiar with the traditions of their time and less demanding in their standards of "proof'. What we see as potential / debatable signs, indicators or suggestions were to them clear evidence of connection. And so these clues were hidden and disguised by the VMs artist. And what might have appeared to them as potential signs, indicators or suggestions often appear to us as ambiguous, unclear, unknown and unseen. Recently, however, certain examples seem to indicate potential rules for VMs illustrations: Maintain traditional structure and follow the pattern; Maximize visual diversity using ambiguity and disguise.
In this way, those who rely solely on superficial appearance and visual similarity will fail. The path to understanding is found in the similarity of structure, which is the underlying reality.
01-08-2019, 12:22 AM
The Valois Library:
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Page 107 cites the presence of texts by Nicole Oresme in the library.
Still a lot of what and when to sort out.
Of course BNF Fr. 565 is ostensibly by Oresme.
Hypothetically, this puts some version of Oresme's cosmos, the "Apocalypse of S. Jean" MS and the origins of the Order of Golden Fleece all in a fairly confined setting of time and place.
MAYBE???
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Page 107 cites the presence of texts by Nicole Oresme in the library.
Still a lot of what and when to sort out.
Of course BNF Fr. 565 is ostensibly by Oresme.
Hypothetically, this puts some version of Oresme's cosmos, the "Apocalypse of S. Jean" MS and the origins of the Order of Golden Fleece all in a fairly confined setting of time and place.
MAYBE???
01-08-2019, 11:42 PM
A different, but similar, apocalypse image.
Apocalyptic Lamb, 'Dyson Perrins Apocalypse', London ca. 1255-1260 (LA, The J. Paul Getty Museum, Ms. Ludwig III 1, fol. 5r)
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They're practically twins:
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Apocalyptic Lamb, 'Dyson Perrins Apocalypse', London ca. 1255-1260 (LA, The J. Paul Getty Museum, Ms. Ludwig III 1, fol. 5r)
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They're practically twins:
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