The rule set of vocabulary plus grammar would not be enough to recreate something like Hop on Pop. There are also issues of subject matter, age-level target, length, and the famous Seuss dose of creativity.
It would be a challenge, but I think something like it could be done. Natural-language-generation programs have come a long way. Some websites are written with them.
For Voynichese, the vocabulary (which is somewhat limited) is less of a problem than the "grammar". What should follow what? and when? and how much?
(11-06-2019, 10:30 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So here is one more attempt.
I used the first approx 10,000 words of Pliny's natural history.
It has more than 3999 word types, so I added the Roman numeral Q to represent 5000.
I also introduced an alternative representation of the numbers (not Voynich-like).
Here are the files:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Second edit: problem should have been solved.
Hi Rene,
I see that those file are not available anymore. I often refer to mod2 as a great way to force partial reduplication. Is there any discussion and example of the method that can be linked?
Hi Marco,
when I moved my site to a new host last year, I did not copy over all of the 'unofficial' data.
I just restored these three files so you should be able to use them again.
There will be lots of similar items missing, so just drop me a line if you need something.
(28-05-2019, 09:00 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (28-05-2019, 08:50 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think McCrone determined that the VMS ink was most likely added close to the time of the radiocarbon dating (I'm going by memory, so it might be a good idea to double-check).
Yes it might be. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
IIRC, McCrone is the guy who proved that the Vinland map was a forgery. (Was it kept at Beinecke, or some other library?)
I skimmed through his report on the VMS. I found it puzzling that he describes the ink as having black particles. Presumably those are the black spots one sees in the high-res image that Rene posted the other day. I have never actually seen a manuscript with iron-gall ink on vellum, but from what I read I expected to see the black stuff as a film firmly stuck to the vellum, not as discrete particles. I wonder...
And then, IIRC, the report says that the X-ray fluorescence failed to detect iron in the ink used to write the quire marks. And speculates that it must have been a "low-iron iron-gall ink". Which to me sounds like a "low-grape red wine". I wonder more...
All the best, --jorge
PS. At the time of the Vinland saga, I was impressed by the forensics breakthrough. But now, after looking closely at the VMS scans, I wonder even more... Could it be that, like the VMS, the map was genuine, but some later owner, seeing that it was faded, decided to "restore" it by re-tracing it with modern ink?
The comparison to wine isn't the best one: you don't make iron gall ink by fermenting iron. Rather, you add ferrous sulphate to a solution of crushed oak galls.
If you add a low amount of ferrous sulphate relative to the other ingredients, you end up with a low iron ink. Whether this amount can be so low as to avoid detection in some samples, I don't know. I assume the McCrone institute has experience in these matters.
(05-07-2025, 08:24 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The comparison to wine isn't the best one: you don't make iron gall ink by fermenting iron. Rather, you add ferrous sulphate to a solution of crushed oak galls.
If you add a low amount of ferrous sulphate relative to the other ingredients, you end up with a low iron ink. Whether this amount can be so low as to avoid detection in some samples, I don't know.
The black color of the ink is entirely due to the iron ions combining with tannins from the galls. A "low iron" ink would be light and would not darken with time, like the proper formula would. It would be indeed like a "low grape red wine".
Quote:I assume the McCrone institute has experience in these matters.
They certainly have experience... But does that make them infallible?
Not infallable, but it does mean strong evidence is required to refute their conclusions.