(13-05-2019, 02:20 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess the owl as a nocturnal bird could be linked to a sleep-inducing herb without the need of a direct linguistic link in the name. The problem is that we don't know yet whether to expect a mnemonic to be linguistic, or rather functional/conceptual. And with these leaves, they could certainly be based on a natural form.
Therefore I think it would be best to focus on the heads, since they are among the most obvious non-botanical elements of all the plants.
To me they don't look sleepy at all, with their wide open eyes. Especially the one on the left looks rather surprised or agitated, with some white of the eye visible above the iris.
The one on the right does look more relaxed. Maybe it's a before and after shot 
The plant is a type of Silene with over 700 varieties it is very difficult to pinpoint exactly which one. The plant roots were used
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A Xhosa diviner identifies and collects the plant from the wild. The roots are ground, mixed with water, and beaten to a froth, which is consumed by novice diviners during the full moon to influence their dreams. They also take it to prepare for various rituals. The root has such a strong, musky essence that the diviners who consume it exude the scent in their sweat" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. In the Voynich it talks of them not only cooking the leaves in winter and saving seed, but also of eating the 'sweet potato' after cooking.
I know everyone is hung up on the leaf illustrations in the Voynich, but there were trying to draw the small leaf protrusions sticking out at the base of the leaf and stem. This image of a california variety shows it best. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-05-2019, 03:20 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The plant is a type of Silene with over 700 varieties it is very difficult to pinpoint exactly which one. The plant roots were used
" A Xhosa diviner identifies and collects the plant from the wild. The roots are ground, mixed with water, and beaten to a froth, which is consumed by novice diviners during the full moon to influence their dreams. They also take it to prepare for various rituals. The root has such a strong, musky essence that the diviners who consume it exude the scent in their sweat" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. In the Voynich it talks of them not only cooking the leaves in winter and saving seed, but also of eating the 'sweet potato' after cooking.
I know everyone is hung up on the leaf illustrations in the Voynich, but there were trying to draw the small leaf protrusions sticking out at the base of the leaf and stem. This image of a california variety shows it best. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I had thought so too, and as the leaves were used in some cases i thought they resembled the leaves after they were removed, re Silene vulgaris anyway. I think one with tuberous divining roots is from africa.
I think it's less likely to be Silene.
There's another plant in the VMS that is quite a good match for Silene, which shows that the illustrator knew Silene and knew how to draw Silene (it might also be other things, there are a number of plants that look like Silene, but at least it demonstrates that the illustrator could properly recognize and copy Silene traits).
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The water lilies are both sedative and narcotic (with an-aphrodisiac propensities), so they also make one sleepy (probably not a strongly as opium, but I thought I'd mention it).
Papaver somniferum has two really distinctive traits that one doesn't see in the seedheads... the holes along the top of the capsule, under the rosette (this is where the seeds come out), and a knob at the base of the capsule. They're the kind of details that the VMS illustrator seems to like to include, although I suppose it could be deliberate that they were left out if it is poppy. I just can't think of any reason the leaves would be drawn as hastate/sagittate for a frondy plant though. The only connection I could think of would be to indicate that morphine is for soldiers with wounds. I suppose that's possible, but the vase-shape is not a good match for poppy either.
Poppy is very commonly found in the old herbals, but so are the water lilies.
(13-05-2019, 05:17 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it's less likely to be Silene.
There's another plant in the VMS that is quite a good match for Silene, which shows that the illustrator knew Silene and knew how to draw Silene (it might also be other things, there are a number of plants that look like Silene, but at least it demonstrates that the illustrator could properly recognize and copy Silene traits).
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The water lilies are both sedative and narcotic (with an-aphrodisiac propensities), so they also make one sleepy (probably not a strongly as opium, but I thought I'd mention it).
Papaver somniferum has two really distinctive traits that one doesn't see in the seedheads... the holes along the top of the capsule, under the rosette (this is where the seeds come out), and a knob at the base of the capsule. They're the kind of details that the VMS illustrator seems to like to include, although I suppose it could be deliberate that they were left out if it is poppy. I just can't think of any reason the leaves would be drawn as hastate/sagittate for a frondy plant though. The only connection I could think of would be to indicate that morphine is for soldiers with wounds. I suppose that's possible, but the vase-shape is not a good match for poppy either.
Poppy is very commonly found in the old herbals, but so are the water lilies.
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Login to view. is the better option for poppy as the c8g image (sorry, i don't use Eva) translates as 'frg' F as in a soft P sound. and Prg is the Hebrew word for poppy seed. Line 3 talks of their secret to bore through the firepot of the poppy seed, done it the production of opium. (still translating this page) as You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. Had the Poppy word listed 53 times on the bath pages for usage of relaxation and pain, and a warning not to use or plunder on the right side letters going downward. (translating this as well since they correspond to each other) It is used on other bath pages as well, and most bath houses in the middle ages were used for prostitution and drug use. You are not allowed to view links.
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Silene undulata or capensis is the African dream root. It has an elongated seed head as well in comparison to other Silenes. Which did you think was a better example?
I do think your waterlillies are pretty convincing, i will have to look into them further.
I actually have Silene vulgaris (Silene inflata) as an alternate ID for this plant but I never blogged about it because the leaves are completely wrong and the capsule is the wrong shape, and the number of lobes (which are also carefully drawn) is wrong.
Silene leaves are in pairs, up the stem. The VMS illustrator gave quite a bit of care and attention to leaf shapes and leaf arrangements (and even to leaf margins). So this kind of leaf (Silene) doesn't seem to match well:
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JKP did you see this line on the wiki for N. lutea? You are not allowed to view links.
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Quote:Stone masons carved forms of the flowers on the roof bosses of Bristol Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, these are thought to encourage celibacy.
(13-05-2019, 08:32 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I actually have Silene vulgaris (Silene inflata) as an alternate ID for this plant but I never blogged about it because the leaves are completely wrong and the capsule is the wrong shape, and the number of lobes (which are also carefully drawn) is wrong.
Silene leaves are in pairs, up the stem. The VMS illustrator gave quite a bit of care and attention to leaf shapes and leaf arrangements (and even to leaf margins). So this kind of leaf (Silene) doesn't seem to match well:
Agreed, but what i was saying was that the leaves look like they do once removed from the plant. It is the wrong time of year or i would tear some off my local vulgaris and show a pic, the clasping bottoms of the leaf tear off with a bit of stem attached in the middles and the resulting pieces look like three lobed leaves.
The drawing does show them opposite, just removed and grouped, which is what gets done with them. In some cases they could be attached to each other as shown, if the stem pieces extend from one level to the next.
Monica also showed a pic with little protrusions, this is another possibility. Both of us have said we don't know which species of Silene but have both given examples of species with longer seed pods than vulgaris, i just know that species better than others, as i eat it myself, it grows in my garden and in the forests around me.
I did not see leaves like the drawing on the waterlillies, or poppies either, although i saw similar clasping leaves, although i think they are alternates...did i miss something? In the absense of better matching leaves i still allow Silene in my list of possibilities. I have added the waterlillies though.
(13-05-2019, 09:17 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP did you see this line on the wiki for N. lutea? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Stone masons carved forms of the flowers on the roof bosses of Bristol Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, these are thought to encourage celibacy.
I hadn't seen that, Koen. Cool. Thank you.
So what we are seeing could be two monks who are being encouraged to celibacy by this plant. It would be interesting to find out more about this belief.
In fact, it makes sense that two heads are drawn. Like testicles.