Simply an off the cuff thought that I haven't thought through, but, surely the presence of the various 15th century Latin characters hidden on leaves is a hint that the manuscript was originally produced by people with extensive or even native knowledge of western European literary tradition?
IE, it's unlikely that a native writer of a script other than Roman would have used Roman characters in these places.
I think so too, "produced" being a key word. For example during some periods Jews would hire Latins for producing illuminated manuscripts because they themselves were inexperienced in the matter (for religious reasons).
So the matter of contents aside, I think you are right to say that we have strong indications for production in a "Latin" environment.
...And my favorite "pox leber", "lab" and "so nim gas mich", coupled with that "musdel", narrow that down to a "German" environment.
Now, the subsequent life of the MS shifts it to some "French" (?) environment, for, although such things as "aberil" and "augst" are so-so "German" and are found in the Swiss "Idiotikon", the latter four months such as "septembre" and "octembre" do not sound Germanic.
(04-04-2019, 05:46 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Simply an off the cuff thought that I haven't thought through, but, surely the presence of the various 15th century Latin characters hidden on leaves is a hint that the manuscript was originally produced by people with extensive or even native knowledge of western European literary tradition?
IE, it's unlikely that a native writer of a script other than Roman would have used Roman characters in these places.
David, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "hidden on leaves". Which Latin characters are hidden?
Why, all those "rot" and "p v"...
(04-04-2019, 07:49 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why, all those "rot" and "p v"...
Oh! Of course.
I never thought of them as hidden because it was normal for annotations to be covered over by rubricators, illustrators, and painters. I think of them as being obscured by the finishing process. I guess, to me, the word "hidden" suggests deliberately trying to hide them. I don't think this is the case.
All of this remains rather tricky though. A "shift in environment" may not even mean a physical shift, but rather a shift in ownership. If it was first created in a place (workshop, scriptorium, whatever you want..) where both German and French speakers were present, not even a shift is necessary.
It also remains difficult to read all the (non-month names) marginalia in unadulterated German, let alone German from a single dialect.
@JKP - Sorry, I didn't mean intentionally hidden - just hidden as in not easy to find, obscured.
@Anton - that was going to be part 2) of my proposal, once people had come around the my original way of thinking
Quote:let alone German from a single dialect.
yeah, I hope it'll be nailed down sooner or later!
(04-04-2019, 06:29 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now, the subsequent life of the MS shifts it to some "French" (?) environment, for, although such things as "aberil" and "augst" are so-so "German" and are found in the Swiss "Idiotikon", the latter four months such as "septembre" and "octembre" do not sound Germanic
Anton,
These are some examples from a medieval regional language from Normandy, in France.
April = averill (norman idiom)
March = Mâr or Mars
May = Mai
July = Jullet
October = Octobre
September = Septembre
August = Aust or Aoust
November = Novembre
The problem is that there were several idioms spoken in Normandy (France) in Middle Age, as in other french regions.