The Voynich Ninja

One of the big problems I've seen, for quite some time, in reading the Vms text as meaningful rather than meaningless, are the red ink labels and text on f. 67r2.

As far as I can see, f. 67r2 is the only page with text written in red ink in the entire ms. It seems to me that this should tell us that this text should be *very significant*. I can't think of any good reason for the author to write unimportant or insignificant text in bold red ink that stands out from all of the rest of the text in the ms.

The problem is, the 12 red ink labels around the outside of the circular diagram on f. 67r2 seem to contain fairly repetitive text and vords and phrases, just as much as or even more so than most of the rest of the ms text. And if the bold red ink text is so opaque, what hope can we have for making sense of the rest of the text that isn't written in bold red ink?

Here is the text of these 12 red ink labels, in Eva transcription, starting at the top of the page at 12 o'clock position and proceeding clockwise:

[soy shr okar]
[shekchy (s?)ykor]
[ykeody okchy]
[dchtay]
[ykchykchey ykchys]
[chkchdar]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ykar ykaly][/font][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][lkshykchy okar][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][chky chykchr chy][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ykchs ykchos][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ykchyr aram][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ykecho ols eesydy][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Note in particular the repetitive vord stems in the 5th label, repeated in the 10th label and the first vord of the 11th label and perhaps of the 12th label. Note further the repetitive vord stems in the 7th label and the 9th label.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I don't care how you propose to read or decipher this set of 12 labels, whether as plaintext or ciphertext: How can anyone possibly read this set of extremely repetitive vords and phrases as, for example, the names of the 12 Zodiac signs, or the names of the 12 months, in any language whatsoever that has ever existed anywhere in the world?[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And again, if the bold red ink text has no significant meaning that we can ever hope to comprehend, what hope do we have for making sense of the rest of the text written in regular ink?[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]=====[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Don't worry, this post will not end on such a pessimistic and hopeless note. I just wanted to state the problematic issue here as clearly and strongly as possible. Because yes, it has bothered me a lot.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is my hopeful idea for making sense of these 12 red ink labels:[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A list of different body parts that a medieval physician believed were influenced by the position of the moon in one of the 12 signs of the Zodiac.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is always surprising to go back and realize this nowadays, but astrology was an essential part of medical practice in the Middle Ages, just as it was an essential part of so much else in medieval life. It was in fact quite standard for a medieval physician to determine the place of origin of a patient's illness in his body by the position of the moon in the Zodiac at the time the illness began.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Since much of the rest of the Vms sections appear to have plausible connections to medieval medicinal subject matter, it would not be too out of place if that is the purpose of the astrological section of the ms as well.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I can accept a certain amount of repetition in these 12 red labels much more readily, if they are simply lists of body parts believed to be affected by the moon's presence in each respective Zodiac sign. This makes much more sense to me than trying to read this set of 12 labels as the 12 signs of the Zodiac, the 12 months, etc.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The next question that arises from this observation is the one single line of bold red ink text at the bottom of the same page f. 67r2:[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]sshey syshees qeykeey ykchey ykchey qokeochy oaiin okalar ol(ar?)]
[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It seems logical that this line of text must somehow be connected with the 12 labels that are also written in red ink. Perhaps this line of text simply states something like "body parts & Zodiac signs & the moon", or some such legend for the labels, presumably with a bit more grammar in the actual text than I have included in this crude guess. I have always thought that the simplest and most likely explanation of the [q-] / [qo-] prefix is that it is the Voynichese equivalent of an ampersand. In this line, that would break up the text into "[first two vords] & [next three vords] & [last four words]". I do note that the first [q-] in this line is a rare example of [qe-], not [qo-], although [qe-] does occur 66 times in the entire ms.[/font][/font][/font]

I humbly suggest that would-be decipherers of the Vms might try these 12 red ink labels and this line of red ink text as a test case for your theories and hypotheses to decipher the script and the text. If anyone can produce a consistent and systematic theory that accounts for everything in red ink on f. 67r2 and yields a text that is both grammatical and semantically plausible in a context such as I suggest above, then I would be highly impressed. On the other hand, if one's theory cannot produce anything remotely sensible for all of this red ink text, then I would probably tend to question the likelihood that it could make sense out of the rest of the ms text either.

-Geoffrey Caveney

I thought the image might help. Also if you don't put the period and space in f67r2 i think it will link to the image of the page, although it is not showing up in my preview. Maybe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ...aha. it just helps those of us who need the visuals. Eva doesn't do much for me, the choice of representative letters doesnt jive with what i see when i look at voynichese. 

As to the actual text i do not know what it would say. The vord stems, maybe it is related words? Sunny sunshine. Earthy Earthlings. Plant planting. Weighing weights. Those would look repetitive yet do have meaning.

I am not sure why body parts would allow for more repetition of characters than zodiac signs, or whether any of these are relevant. It does seem more complicated than just month or zodiac names. Plus there is a lot of non-red text there too, to explain further.

Maybe it is showing that the moon looks different from different points on earth? Two people describing astronomical events could describe the same event differently, leading to confusion if compared, if the differences based on location are not taken into account. Here is an example of what i mean.
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If you haven't read Vviews' take on this page, you can get to it from this recent thread on the same topic.

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Linda, thank you for posting the image of the page. It's always the simple things we forget! The tip about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. linking to the image is a big help too, much appreciated.

The image highlights the obvious point that the page shows the moon in each of the 12 sections of the circular diagram, which may be related to medieval physicians considering the position of the moon in the Zodiac and its influence on different parts of the body.

I agree it's hard for any transcription to do justice to the glyphs themselves. It's just a convenience since it's so much easier to type anything in Latin letters, especially online. I've also recently become convinced that the "Cuva" transcription that Rene's site describes is actually probably a better and more accurate system than Eva. But most people who research the Voynich ms text are very used to Eva by now, so it's hard to break away from. In the Linear B research back in the day, the syllabary was so big that they had no choice but to use two-digit numbers to represent each character. Sometimes I wonder if that wouldn't be better for us too, to get us away from preconceived notions that may unconsciously arise from the habit of using Eva letters to express Voynich glyphs all the time.

Yes, there are many types of phrases with repeated related word stems. Other examples are "king of kings", "lord of lords", "host of hosts", in languages where "of" is not a separate word or where the possessive or genitive concept is expressed with a suffix or prefix. Deliberate alliteration and assonance are also very common literary devices, and especially so in certain languages and literary traditions such as Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. (Scholars have noted that New Testament Greek lost some of the alliterative and assonant word play of some of Jesus's sayings in the original Aramaic, which the Syriac Peshitta version of the Bible in some cases captures better.)

I think a list of body parts could allow for more repetition because the same body part might appear under multiple Zodiac signs, especially if it's a rather generic body part like "chest" or "nervous system" or "digestive system", each of which effectively may occur under multiple signs in a system such as the one described in this link:

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Whereas a list of the 12 Zodiac signs or the 12 months seems much more rigid to me, with much less allowance for anything other than the 12 canonical names of the signs or months. With the body parts, it's just a doctor's practical guide, there can be abbreviations or generic labels for sections of the body or variations in terminology. Also, in some languages similar or nearby body parts such as hand/arm and foot/leg may have identical or closely related names, so that if a physician wrote both of them in one label, it would appear as two very similar words. Another example would be the repetition of words like "bile" or other terms related to the four "humors" which were an essential part of medieval medicine and also believed to have links to astrology and Zodiac signs as well.

As for the 12 separate illustrations of the moon in the diagram, I think the overwhelmingly most likely significance of the division of the circle into 12 parts has to be the 12 months or Zodiac signs. We find the same 12 sections on the preceding page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1, and again on the following page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1. The individual pages for each Zodiac sign follow shortly thereafter, from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . The 12 sections of the circle simply have to represent the 12 signs or months. I can't see how they could be anything else.

What I do find curious about these 12 illustrations of the moon, is how the ones with their crescents colored red mostly alternate signs/months, except for two in a row on the right side that are not red, followed by two more in a row toward the bottom that are red. I would love to know what the significance of that pattern is!

Thank you for the pointer and the link to VViews' take on this page. I will have to take a closer look at his post and the discussion there!

(09-03-2019, 04:00 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The image highlights the obvious point that the page shows the moon in each of the 12 sections of the circular diagram, which may be related to medieval physicians considering the position of the moon in the Zodiac and its influence on different parts of the body.

I do admit to coming across various mentions of similar topics, the zodiac man, humours not to be let during certain phases of the moon. It appears the moons are in a 23 day position or thereabouts if the new moon is day 1. This might mean the full moon is on its way so don't temp the tide effect and wait out this waxing period.

Quote:I agree it's hard for any transcription to do justice to the glyphs themselves. It's just a convenience since it's so much easier to type anything in Latin letters, especially online. I've also recently become convinced that the "Cuva" transcription that Rene's site describes is actually probably a better and more accurate system than Eva. But most people who research the Voynich ms text are very used to Eva by now, so it's hard to break away from. In the Linear B research back in the day, the syllabary was so big that they had no choice but to use two-digit numbers to represent each character. Sometimes I wonder if that wouldn't be better for us too, to get us away from preconceived notions that may unconsciously arise from the habit of using Eva letters to express Voynich glyphs all the time.

Interesting, i hadnt been aware of Cuva. The number idea is interesting too, to deter unconscious analogy with the workings of the eva sounds or forms and ascribing them erroneously to being related to Voynichese.

An humourous aside... autocorrect just turned "Voynichese" to "Confused". Ha.

Quote:Yes, there are many types of phrases with repeated related word stems. Other examples are "king of kings", "lord of lords", "host of hosts", in languages where "of" is not a separate word or where the possessive or genitive concept is expressed with a suffix or prefix. Deliberate alliteration and assonance are also very common literary devices, and especially so in certain languages and literary traditions such as Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. (Scholars have noted that New Testament Greek lost some of the alliterative and assonant word play of some of Jesus's sayings in the original Aramaic, which the Syriac Peshitta version of the Bible in some cases captures better.)

I was thinking alliteration as well. But if, for example, the glyphs stand for other things, like coordinates, two similar vords side by side could be indicative of adjacent places. It could explain why so many seemingly repetetive strings exist, and why many labels in quire 13 are so similar. Or it could be they stand for other words, numbers, or visual attributes. In this case they would not act the same as if they were what we usually think of as words.

Quote:I think a list of body parts could allow for more repetition because the same body part might appear under multiple Zodiac signs, especially if it's a rather generic body part like "chest" or "nervous system" or "digestive system", each of which effectively may occur under multiple signs in a system such as the one described in this link:

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I have taken a brief look at body part notion, when i set my quire 13 page order based on the geographical tour of waterbodies of the ecumene, i checked it against Ellie Velinska's body part identifications, and it built up from foot to head, or Pisces through to Aries (via Aquarius), as listed in the link example. So yes i can see connections to that effect being reflected in the text as well. I think i see what you mean by repetition of parts, but i dont see this type of repetition in the red labels per se.

Quote:Whereas a list of the 12 Zodiac signs or the 12 months seems much more rigid to me, with much less allowance for anything other than the 12 canonical names of the signs or months. With the body parts, it's just a doctor's practical guide, there can be abbreviations or generic labels for sections of the body or variations in terminology. Also, in some languages similar or nearby body parts such as hand/arm and foot/leg may have identical or closely related names, so that if a physician wrote both of them in one label, it would appear as two very similar words. Another example would be the repetition of words like "bile" or other terms related to the four "humors" which were an essential part of medieval medicine and also believed to have links to astrology and Zodiac signs as well.

I could see that being the case.

Quote:As for the 12 separate illustrations of the moon in the diagram, I think the overwhelmingly most likely significance of the division of the circle into 12 parts has to be the 12 months or Zodiac signs. We find the same 12 sections on the preceding page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1, and again on the following page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1. The individual pages for each Zodiac sign follow shortly thereafter, from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . The 12 sections of the circle simply have to represent the 12 signs or months. I can't see how they could be anything else.

Agreed, it does seem to fit with the inclusion of the zodiac section, and references to Earth as a turning planet, that is connected to a turning firmament (i believe this may be referencing precession through the zodiac over the ages).

Quote:What I do find curious about these 12 illustrations of the moon, is how the ones with their crescents colored red mostly alternate signs/months, except for two in a row on the right side that are not red, followed by two more in a row toward the bottom that are red. I would love to know what the significance of that pattern is!

I have seen some explanations which cover this and thought one of them had it right but cant remember what the idea was related to or who outlined it. You are right, it needs explanation.

Quote:Thank you for the pointer and the link to VViews' take on this page. I will have to take a closer look at his post and the discussion there!

You are welcome. 

Re the idea of the crab nebula, given the changes that we have been able to capture in the photographic era, it is conceivable for someone of that time to have noticed a difference in it within their lives, especially if they had equated it with mentions thereof within manuscripts, and if they had the ability to see it well enough. Given that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f68r3 gives hints at heavenly objects in the vicinity of Taurus being occluded by the moon, perhaps it is not beyond the realm of possibility that this is portrayed centrally on this page, especially with the two cloudbursts superimposed on a star.

I see the vms as having one underlying theme, and that is change over time. From volcanic uplift and overflow, to erosion, sedimentation, and evaporation, to the tides, ebbs, and flows of water, to the morphing and hybridization of plants, to the changes in civilizations from place to place and through time, to the lights in the night sky moving and changing positions, if that is true, and the text outlines more of the same, the vms could be analogous to a snapshot of time itself, but not only that, but which may include corrections to what we think we already know now.

It would not surprise me if it also included information as to the physicalities of the human condition.

Hello to all.
I think we need to reverse the course of action. The indicated circular inscriptions and the second bottom line are not made in red ink, but in red paint for drawing. This follows from the quality of writing characters, as if the paint lacked plasticity, (the presence of grains). This paint painted clothes, and made (added) the blush on the cheeks of nymphs in various Quire and painted mouths.
It is necessary to emphasize another feature of this page. Only on this page, the markup by dint of parallel straight lines is applied, by pressing a clean (without ink) pen on the ruler to the full width of the page. As if the author wanted to make this page neat and elegant. But exactly  this page should be the first in Quire 9 with proper stitching. (Focus on the Quire label. We discussed this earlier in the forum, and this is mentioned on the Rene website).
[attachment=2714]

Red was used extensively in medieval manuscripts for headings, running titles and initials. In the case of f67r2, I would see the red text as a heading for the text in the circle segments below. However, there are no repetitions of the titles in the text in the circle segments (which would have been conceivable, at least similar words).

edit: but there seems to be patterns in the titles. Here is an example:
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