The Voynich Ninja - Rosette volcano as Vesuvius

Hey there.

Someone recently said it would be ridiculous that this image could be identified as a specific volcano, but I figure the idea might have some merit, and i think there may be visual evidence to support this idea.

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That pic is from pre 79 AD, as it was buried in the Pompei eruption, i.e. this is sometime before the eruption. Note the knob to one side, the bump on the other side. Some angular difference in the view, but not much. Sometimes it looks like the knob is in the back on the fresco, but i think it is on the side. Also because when you compare with a painting from the west, it is a quarter turn away. So the vms and fresco are both views from southwest.

This one, from the west, from about 1575, shows the hole that existed before the eruption of 1631. Probably pretty similar to what would have been the case in the early 1400s. If you turned it 45 degrees clockwise, would that not be just about right, including the belly-like protrusion? Except the caldera is not drawn in the vms, just the vesuvius part, that is why it doesn't look the same on the lower left.

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Here is a view from the top that shows various stages in its life.

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Here is its situation, you can see that the 1575 painting would be from the vantagepoint of the eastern edge of the pozzuoli circle, 3 o clock. That would put the vms and pompei view from the gulf, right angle to the shore and volcano between naples and pompei, approximately the same distance away.

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What do you think? Can this be considered as plausible?

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Not high enough? I figure this is a similar angle to the pompei fresco, you can see the caldera in the fresco as the part with black paint, lower left corner.

It's actually hard for me to comment objectively on this because I'm biased.

I have a short-list of favorite locations for the VMS "map" (after looking at hundreds of towns near water and trying to match them up with the "map" topology) and Naples is one of my top picks.

I've tried to stay open-minded about that "triangular" thingie, maybe volcano, maybe springs coming out of a mountain, maybe geysers or steam vents, but I think volcano is certainly one of the possibilities and I think it MIGHT be possible to track it down to a specific feature if the objects around it fit well enough.

So that is not a no.

I guess we have to remain open to other possibilities until there is a correlation with the text. But i see most of what you are describing as fitting.

I don't actually see Naples, i see it filling in for the entire Italian peninsula. But that rosette has other morphs for me, as do the others.

Here is a better view of the 1578 version

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(28-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is a better view of the 1578 version

That one is actually an even better match for the general shape, with the scooped, angled top.

(28-02-2019, 04:58 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So that is not a no.

I guess we have to remain open to other possibilities until there is a correlation with the text. But i see most of what you are describing as fitting.

I don't actually see Naples, i see it filling in for the entire Italian peninsula. But that rosette has other morphs for me, as do the others.

That's on my list too. I have a list of about a dozen locations that seemed to "work" better with the features on the "map than others. It's not quite as high on the list as Naples (by Naples, I am including "greater" Naples, with the thermal vents and craters around it, and the island of Nisida, and island with the lighthouse).

Imagine a camera with a zoom lens. Focus it just southeast of Naples (so it includes Naples), and then zoom back a bit to take in a wider area so that Naples and part of the southeast side of the boot are included, south of Bari (in addition to Salerno and Naples, Bari was one of the areas that attracted medical scholars in those days). That area southeast is a spa region with pools and grottoes, green and blue water, and a lot of mosaics with ancient illustrations (astrology, sea life, plants). Very multicultural, with a very interesting history.

In the early days, I tried very hard to fit the map to Jerusalem, Genoa, Tivoli, a couple of towns on the Black See, Tunisia, and Venice (and about 300 other towns around the entire coastline of Europe, Africa, the Middle East, the Caribbean, and Meso-America). I even tried some of the old trading cities around the coast of India.

At first I deliberately ignored the suns and the T-O (even though they are orientation symbols, I wasn't sure if they were intended to be interpreted that way in the VMS, in fact, I'm STILL not absolutely certain that is their function). I turned the "map" every possible way, considered every possible interpretation for the different shapes, tried to vary my perception of scale (was the "camera" zoomed in or zoomed out? were the "trails" between the rosettes short or longer than is indicated in the drawings?) but I could never quite find as many "matches" as I could for a small number that gradually worked their way to the top of the list.

I was hoping Tivoli would come to the top. It had enough "resonance" with the VMS "map" that I spent more a year trying to reconcile its features with the rosettes. It has swimming holes, green and blue water, craggy parts, escarpments, fountains, waterfalls. It even has a winding road along the steep section in somewhat the same place as the winding pathway on the "map". It has a LOT of hits but... in the end I didn't feel there were enough. Some things didn't add up.

Sicily worked a little better than Tivoli, but volcanic eruptions have completely altered the position of the towns and the shape of the coastline, so it's harder to assess what it looked like it those days.

I also considered that each of the rosettes might be hundreds of miles apart, landmarks in a long journey, but that's discouraging, because then it could be anywhere and hard to pinpoint the details. And I'm not discounting the possibility that it might be a metaphorical map, but I'm HOPING it's a geographical map. Smile

Rats i lost my big long reply after i left the page for too long looking to complete a thought. Ugh. But it made me think of other things.

I find it really cool that you get zoom morphs going too. I guess it is based on the fact that we don't know what is portrayed, so we get different patterns going along the same lines of thought. For me they have a tendency to fall in threes, changing sizes along the way, but each informs the other.

You said elsewhere about how a theory will not solve anything, it is a tool to direct the research.

My theory has quire 13 as a periplus and quire 14 as a map of sorts. Perhaps the text encodes coordinates and the rosettes are where the windroses go, with hints as to what gets drawn from there. So, Vesuvius would belong to the corner rosette. Possibly that would mean anything south of there would belong to the middle rosette, since the volcano points that way.

I see the rosettes basically as follows, remember there are morphs but for now i want to give them names.

Ceuta/Tunisia Andorra Vesuvius/Alps

Libya Sicily Aegean Sea

Egypt/Arabia Mesopotamia Armenia

Now take a look at the windroses here.

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[Image: Europe_Mediterranean_Catalan_Atlas.jpeg]

The windrose circles in northwestern Africa are similar to the morphs i mentioned the other day, except I hadnt equated them to windroses, just what i could see them standing for. The one in the centre of northwestern Africa, then the one in Algeria, and one on Tunisia, which i also just figured recently as another morph for the tubes. Lines from two of the windroses pass through Ceuta.

There isnt one at Andorra but two of the Europe circles pass by. This could just mean this is not the right map presentation. Windroses aren't standard in their positions, the lines don't mean anything in terms of a route because there is no projection involved in portolan maps.

This just to show that they are different positions. Continuing on with the first example:

One near the alps that has a line going through Vesuvius/Naples.

One centred in the Aegean Sea.

One at Armenia.

Euphrates, check.

Red Sea, check.

Libya, yes.

Sicily, No.

Enough to keep me on that track for a bit, though.

Could be like this too, squaring the circle.

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From wiki, plus it mentioned these were usually mnemonic personal collections kept secret....

Handbooks often contained a wealth of information beyond sailing directions. For instance, they frequently had detailed physical descriptions of shorelines, harbors, islands, channels, notes about tides, landmarks, reefs, shoals and difficult entries, instructions on how to use navigational instruments to determine position and plot routes, calendars, astronomical tables, mathematical tables and calculation rules (notably the rule of marteloio), lists of customs regulations at different ports, medical recipes, instructions on ship repair, etc.[5] As a result, the nautical chart never fully replaced the handbook, but remained supplementary to it.

Could the vms be one of these handbooks?

[Image: Toleta_de_marteloio_%28Bianco%2C_1436%29.jpg]

(01-03-2019, 10:45 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Perhaps the text encodes coordinates and the rosettes are where the windroses go, with hints as to what gets drawn from there. So...

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot say YES loud enough.

I think this possibility HAS to be considered, based on the peculiar structure of the VMS text.

To backtrack a little...

I once commented on Nick's blog that maybe the text is a symbolic representation of Gutenberg's trade secrets (his typefaces and printing press design). It was more of an example than a hypothesis, because the point was that the general idea (of encoding physical structures), can be applied to many things, including map coordinates...

Imagine Gutenberg toiling away in secret, designing his printing press and his typefaces. He actually did this. He was a smart man and KNEW as soon as he launched his press that competitors would be trying to steal the ideas (which is exactly what happened). So he practically disappeared for a few years and worked in secret while he was inventing the technology for the press and designing individual type molds.

Now... if you wanted to HIDE this kind of information (e.g., coordinates that define the parts) but make it "visible" to a technician who had to craft the molds, you would end up with something that was very orderly, structured, and repetitious... like Voynichese. It would probably also have positional characteristics (e.g., many coordinate systems start at the top left, work across and down, for example, for each piece of type or each component of the press).

Imagine someone like Gutenberg using a manuscript full of naked nymphs to hide valuable trade secrets or diplomatic information.

Actually, Antonio's idea of Voynichese being astronomical symbols, maybe volvelle symbols, is not a bad idea (it shows better understanding of the structure of the text than the majority of substitution cipher "solutions"). VMS MIGHT be a symbolic language, it's only his interpretation of it that is still under-explained.

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Okay, so the Gutenberg typeface example was mainly intended to show that certain kinds of information, that contain a lot of positional data, are usually written as coordinates or patterns (I once linked to some crochet patterns to illustrate this), even knitting and cross-stitch patterns have this basic structure, but I was mainly thinking maps because France and Germany (and other countries) were regularly sending spies to Constantinople in the late Middle Ages, just as Italy sent Albert Cantino to Spain in the early 16th century to copy or steal maps.

Coded coordinates (regardless of what they encode... astronomical info, textile patterns, typefaces, maps) would be rigid, probably positional, repetitious—very similar to Voynichese.

Also consider that several of the Voynichese glyphs are the same as early 15th-century numbers (I've blogged about this). This glyph l was how they wrote 4, this v is how they wrote 7, this d resembles 8, o resembles zero, this y resembles 9 (I'm a bit hesitant to include 9 since it also was used as an abbreviation symbol).

So maybe there are numbers in there (hard to tell, since alphabetic characters could also be used to record numbers, just as the minims i ii iii iii might represent numbers).

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I don't want to go on for too long, but did want to completely agree with you that the text might include encoded coordinates in some way.

(02-03-2019, 12:05 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Linda" pid='24987' dateline='1551476749']
...
Perhaps the text encodes coordinates and the rosettes are where the windroses go, with hints as to what gets drawn from there. So...

Quote:YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot say YES loud enough.

I think this possibility HAS to be considered, based on the peculiar structure of the VMS text.

Cool! It would be so freaky if there is a portolan map encoded in the manuscript. It would definitely pull some things together.

Quote:To backtrack a little...

I once commented on Nick's blog that maybe the text is a symbolic representation of Gutenberg's trade secrets (his typefaces and printing press design). It was more of an example than a hypothesis, because the point was that the general idea (of encoding physical structures), can be applied to many things, including map coordinates...

Imagine Gutenberg toiling away in secret, designing his printing press and his typefaces. He actually did this. He was a smart man and KNEW as soon as he launched his press that competitors would be trying to steal the ideas (which is exactly what happened). So he practically disappeared for a few years and worked in secret while he was inventing the technology for the press and designing individual type molds.

Now... if you wanted to HIDE this kind of information (e.g., coordinates that define the parts) but make it "visible" to a technician who had to craft the molds, you would end up with something that was very orderly, structured, and repetitious... like Voynichese. It would probably also have positional characteristics (e.g., many coordinate systems start at the top left, work across and down, for example, for each piece of type or each component of the press).

Imagine someone like Gutenberg using a manuscript full of naked nymphs to hide valuable trade secrets or diplomatic information.

Yes, i can envision that. The hiding in plain sight idea is clearly there. I guess the trick is to figure out the structure required to encode such information, then look for this structure in the text?

Quote:Actually, Antonio's idea of Voynichese being astronomical symbols, maybe volvelle symbols, is not a bad idea (it shows better understanding of the structure of the text than the majority of substitution cipher "solutions"). VMS MIGHT be a symbolic language, it's only his interpretation of it that is still under-explained.

Yes i was thinking the same, his last posting has been sitting on my mind but i don't know how to coordinate the info (pun not intended).

Quote:.
Okay, so the Gutenberg typeface example was mainly intended to show that certain kinds of information, that contain a lot of positional data, are usually written as coordinates or patterns (I once linked to some crochet patterns to illustrate this), even knitting and cross-stitch patterns have this basic structure, but I was mainly thinking maps because France and Germany (and other countries) were regularly sending spies to Constantinople in the late Middle Ages, just as Italy sent Albert Cantino to Spain in the early 16th century to copy or steal maps.

Coded coordinates (regardless of what they encode... astronomical info, textile patterns, typefaces, maps) would be rigid, probably positional, repetitious—very similar to Voynichese.

Yes. Many of them become encoded into machinery to create things or calculate things, mechanical knitting machines, automata (some have been created to draw and write), astrolabes.

Quote:Also consider that several of the Voynichese glyphs are the same as early 15th-century numbers (I've blogged about this). This glyph l was how they wrote 4, this v is how they wrote 7, this d resembles 8, o resembles zero, this y resembles 9 (I'm a bit hesitant to include 9 since it also was used as an abbreviation symbol).

So maybe there are numbers in there (hard to tell, since alphabetic characters could also be used to record numbers, just as the minims i ii iii iii might represent numbers).

.
I don't want to go on for too long, but did want to completely agree with you that the text might include encoded coordinates in some way.

Thanks for the support. Still a long way to go, though, it is hard to say how it would all work, but the possibilities are exciting.