The Voynich Ninja

(11-05-2020, 05:58 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Searcher, whence is the diagram that's the first one in this thread, and what's the meaning behind it?

Unfortunately, I can't find the source of that diagram (I'm surprised, maybe, a not fortunate day), but I found a similar diagram in theYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Titre :  Gossouin de Metz, Image du monde [rédaction en prose P].Auteur :  Gossuin de Metz. Auteur du texteAuteur :  Maître de Fauvel. Enlumineur de l'œuvre reproduite. Date d'édition :  1320-1325). It differs by style, but, I think, the meaning is absolutely equal.
MS Francais 574, f214

Quote:I find the tidal explanation of f67v2 problematic. The symbol in the centre is definitely NOT the Earth, the Earth is consistently depicted with a T-O map in the VMS more than once. We also see a T-O map in the low left corner, which suggests that not only the low left corner is the Earth, but that also all other circular corners are Earth as well (only the artist was lazy to make them T-O maps).

Again, the MS Francais 574 (Image du monde) may be an example that it is not necessarily the Earth to be represented in the form of T/O map along the whole manuscript. On my view, it depends on the context. Every picture is provided to show any separate aspect or group of aspects. 
If it is designed to show the parts of the Earth world or, at least, the Earth orientation, it can be depicted in the form of T/O map, as f111 and f112 of MS Francais 574 show. If the aim of the author is to show any other aspect with planets, the Sun, the Moon, etc., he needs to be concentrated on those details that show exactly the influence of those celestial bodies. Of course, it is a choice of an author, and also depends on his habits, on the size of the area provided for a picture.
In the case of the f67v2 of the VMs, I don't think it can be considered as a full depiction of the literal placement of some celestial bodies. This is a scheme. On my view, the corners represent projections of the aspects depicted in the central part of the diagram, they are some explanation of the process. As I wrote earlier, I think, the left botton circle that looks like T/O map with the Faces in it, may represent diurnal influence of the Moon, when it is above and below the horizon. In this case, the t/o division has a function to show the place of the Moon during a day and its quarter-diurnal tides. Pay attention that the the bottom pair of the "faces" are upside-down, it doesn't seem to be accidental, it looks like the author was very attentive to such details.

Quote:I think it should be borne in mind that any diagram in this book would probably bear some practical importance. If it is shown to depict tides, then that means that tides are important in practice, which moves the location of the authorship to some coastal region.

Actually, medieval healers believed that lunar influence on the tides also causes the internal tides, especially it was important for blood-letting.
"...planetary control was believed to draw the deliquescent humours to a corresponding bodily region like internal tides." (Medieval Bodies: Life and Death in the Middle Ages, Jack Hartnell)
I have an idea about the right top corner of the three "faces", I will write about it after checking.

Thanks!

I would agree that it's possible that the Earth would be depicted variously across the MS, but within a single folio it would be strange. I suggest that the central shape stands for some other notion.

If tides are associated with the Element of Water, then the Night Ruler of Water is Mars, but I'm not sure why the Night Ruler would be chosen in particular. The Day Ruler of Water is Venus, which should be six-pointed in the scheme that I propose.

One intriguing but overcomplicated explanation that I' able to bring forward is that the author tried to depict the star both six-pointed and seven-pointed at the same time. In fact, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. me and DONJCH had some difficulty in determining whether the star is six- or seven- pointed. Note the alternation of ochre and blue paint - may hint the alternation of day and night!

Yes, it's curious that some faces are upside down. If it's intended to show different "positions" of the Moon in respect of the Earth, then it's not clear why the three other supposed Earths are left uncharted into a T-O map. This takes the low left corner out of the row.

(12-05-2020, 01:28 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.depict the star both six-pointed and seven-pointed at the same time

Anton,

You know I looked quite carefully with a magnifier before posting 6 points for that star, but when you questioned it and I went back, there it was! 7 points, twisting into the channels, which fork inconsistently.

This seems to me a pretty clever deliberate optical illusion to mislead the eye, maybe not for secrecy but rather as part of a game to both amuse and instruct at the same time. Like those kids' games where you count the differences between two pictures.

Also, the presence of two simultaneous meanings has been proposed many times for the VM, like Koen's discussions of the Milky Way on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. etc and the nymphs on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. etc - all Ancient Greek fables.

Seems crazy at first to our 21st Century eyes but but given a medieval mind steeped in mnemonics, your explanation seems plausible.

Since tides happen twice a day, both day and night Rulers may make sense?

I have created a poll thread about this star. As I said in the Elements thread, I was sure it's 7-pointed but after you dubbed it 6-pointed I'm not sure any more!

But it's important that both Venus (6) and Mars (7) have relation to the Element of Water.

(12-05-2020, 05:58 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But it's important that both Venus (6) and Mars (7) have relation to the Element of Water.

What is the context of this? Astrological? In which system?

Yes, in classical astrology Venus is considered the so-called "Day Ruler" of the Element of Water, and Mars is its Night Ruler.

More on that here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Astrological conception differs from astronomical and physical one, therefore it can't be mixed in this way. If f67v2 represents tides, it means interaction between Earth, Moon and Sun. If it shows a part of some astrological conception, it, no doubt, may contain details with some astrological underlying. 
Tides never were considered in astrological context, they have physical influence. 
Thus, Mars and Venus is quite another theory, it can hardly be combined with the tidal theory.

In those times, astrology and astromony were still inseparable one from another. Even the star catalogue of Ulugh Beg was not yet composed.

But, as I said above, Mars/Venus do not have to be meant as influential forces here. They may be included solely as a symbolical representation of the Element of Water, which is of course closely related to the tides.

I'm not sure, it works like this. Astrology and astronomy weren't separated, as sciences, but they were separated in minds. Such treatises as "De sphaera", "De orbe", "Image du monde", etc., are rather astronomical in their nature. Astrological texts could be written by the same people, but as a separate sections. Anyway, I can't imagine them to be mixed in one diagram.