The Voynich Ninja

I agree, mnemonics are a too speculative basis and may start you off in the wrong direction. 

That said, I'd still be interested in a table of proposed plant IDs by various people. I guess there should be one around somewhere.

(13-02-2018, 06:57 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree, mnemonics are a too speculative basis and may start you off in the wrong direction. 

That said, I'd still be interested in a table of proposed plant IDs by various people. I guess there should be one around somewhere.

Here are links to some:

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Steve D's site is down, but I recall David having posted some substitute link, perhaps to the web archive, I don't remember.

Maybe you know my theory, that the VMS could have its origin in the Basque Country. I´m a little bit further now with my analysis of the VMS text and it´s seems, that it is not written in today´s Basque language, as I thought first, but instead in an medieval relative of the Basque language. But its no my intention to discuss this in these theme.

I will only present you my suggestions and findings about some of the plants:

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I´m quite sure, that the plant on folio 2v is a Nymphaea Alba. 

I have transcripted the whole page and there is spoken about an old myth around the water lily and also about the use of the flour.

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On folio 3r, I suggest a picture of a common polypody. 

I think I found words like "rock", "fern" and "finger" on the page.

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Following the german author Peter Roitzsch, folio 9v gives us a three- coloured pansy (viola tricolor). 

The first two words could be translated as "sleep" and "donkey" or "violet", which is quite suspect to me, like some other things in the manuscript. But it is not quite clear. 

The connection between "sleep", "donkey" and "pansy" is, as far as I know, first known since Shakespeare´s "Midsummer Nights Dream".

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Furthermore, with the help of some German researchers, I found out, that a kind of plantain could be painted on the folio 25v. The five veins of the leafs are very significant. 

But my first interpretation of this plant was, that it is basil, because of the little dragon on the root of the plant. I interpreted this as a basilisk.

So, I´m not sure about this.

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For the folio 26r I have indications, that it could be a vervain. 

But the translation attempt of this page is still in progress.

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The biggest finding could be the plant on folio 23v. I have the suspicion, that it could be borage. 

The initial word of the page is transcripted by me as "boeairroja". The spanish word for borage is "borraja". 

As far as the possibility stands that "oeai" could be a case of a - in German so called - "Rhenish distension", you could read it as "ua". So you could read the word also as "boarroja" or "buarroja".

There are very many examples of vowel accumulations (three or four together), which gives us the possiblity that the author may was a traveller from the Rhineland (like Arnold von Harff) or from other areas with similar dialect features.

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I would like to discuss my ideas. Please share your opinion.

(06-08-2019, 05:08 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I´m quite sure, that the plant on folio 2v is a Nymphaea Alba.

I'm probably equally sure that it is Menyanthese/Villarsia, not Nymphaea Alba. The Menyanthese/Villarsia water lilies (sometimes called frogbit) are smaller than the ones most people are familiar with. They come in white and yellow and both fringed and unfringed and they have a little V-shape on the petals (as in the VMS drawing).

They are circumboreal and they are sometimes included in medieval herbal texts. Some of them have an extended pistil (as in the VMS drawing). So the flower, the pistil, and the shape of the leaf of the Menyanthese/Villarsia species (there are several varieties) are much more similar to the VMS drawing than Nymphaea alba.

Quote:Following the german author Peter Roitzsch, folio 9v gives us a three- coloured pansy (viola tricolor).

Most people seem to think this Viola tricolor (including me). I think there's a small possibilibity it might also be one of the other two violas that is very similar (so similar they are hard to tell apart), but there's not much controversy about this plant ID because it looks exactly like Viola tricolor, right down to the shape and placement of the palmate leaves.

Quote:Furthermore, with the help of some German researchers, I found out, that a kind of plantain could be painted on the folio 25v. The five veins of the leafs are very significant. 


But my first interpretation of this plant was, that it is basil, because of the little dragon on the root of the plant. I interpreted this as a basilisk.


So, I´m not sure about this.

I think it's probably Plantago, but it's not 100% certain because there are three or four other parallel-veined plants on my list that have rosette-arranged leaves. The VMS plant has no flower-stalks to help us distinguish between several plants that have this shape and arrangement of leaves.

I think it's unlikely that it is basil because the veins are wrong, the shape of the leaves is wrong, and the arrangement of the leaves is wrong. Dragons were associated with quite a few different plants in medieval manuscripts, not just basil. Plus the dragon doesn't look very much like a basilisk, it looks more like some of the other medieval dragons.

Quote:For the folio 26r I have indications, that it could be a vervain.

I'm sorry, but the leaves and flowers are completely wrong for vervain. Most medieval vervain drawings are recognizable.

Plant 26r looks more like Kalanchoe (note the leaves), some species of Umbilicus, maybe Dracocephalum grandiflorum, or Chiastophyllum oppositifolium (lamb's tail, originally called Umbilicus).

Both the flowers and the leaves are a pretty good match for Chiastophyllum oppositifolium, a plant that originated in the Caucasus. It's not an ID I've seen mentioned by other Voynich researchers, I'm a lone wolf on this one, but if you can find a picture of the ones that grow wild in the mountains (they are not as thick and droopy as the ones that have been domesticated) you'll see what I mean. The wild ones are sparser than the ones that have been bred by gardeners to have thicker, longer tassels.

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When they are young, when the leaves first come out, the leaves are rounder. The same is true for Sedum telephium, which starts out with rounder, more oval leaves, which become more elliptical as the plant grows (Sedum telephium also has bumpy leaf edges).

Quote:The biggest finding could be the plant on folio 23v. I have the suspicion, that it could be borage. 

The initial word of the page is transcripted by me as "boeairroja". The spanish word for borage is "borraja". 

As far as the possibility stands that "oeai" could be a case of a - in German so called - "Rhenish distension", you could read it as "ua". So you could read the word also as "boarroja" or "buarroja".

The flower and shape and leaves of VMS 23v do not look like borage. Not at all. Other medieval illustrators drew borage in a way that is quite recognizable so why would the VMS illustrator draw it completely wrong when it is evident from other drawings that the illustrator was familiar with plants and could draw them fairly accurately?

Look at the rounded leaves and the pattern on the leaf (look closely at the leaves). Look at the flower. Not at all like borage. I am not sure what it is, I have six possibilities on my list for this plant, but if it is a drawing of borage, it is a very bad drawing.

Quote:I would like to discuss my ideas. Please share your opinion.

That's my opinion.     You might not like it, but there it is.

I have a passion for plants, it was what drew me to the VMS, and I am actually quite impressed with how some of them are drawn. I don't think they are all naturalistic, I think there are mnemonics in some of them, and there might be story-telling in others (we're still exploring this), but the ones that are naturalistic are quite well-drawn for their time.

Somewhere on a dead harddrive i had made an excel file of many people's identifications and had found pics for my own favourite id's.  If i can find and retrieve it, i will post it here.

Opinions are opinions, they are for discussion.

1.)

Linda, I can go along with your idea of Nymphoides indica. It would fulfill my transcription and the possible translation as Nymphaea alba would do and the picture shows us a white flower with five petals like it is the case with Nymphoides indica.

2.)

We seem to have an agreement with "viola tricolor", but we do not have the VMS name of the plant. 
But if my transcription is right, we could read "lohorr oborroey". In Basque "lo" means "sleep", "hura" means "the" and "borro" means "ram" (spanish "burro" means "donkey"). The main Basque Goddess Mari is attributed with a snake and a ram.

3.)

The idea, that it takes out the burn of insect bites, and the dragon stands for this, I find really nice. I could imagine this very well. @JKP So we also agree on "plantain"?

4.)

We definitly did not agree with this plant and I see your arguments. I´ve done some research today, and maybe I have found another good candidate for this plant.

From the transcription, if it is right, we know, that it must be a fragant plant. The first word on the page (maybe the name) is "beriony". So it could also be Salvia verbenaca. 

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To your suggestions. The leafs of Chenopodium and Alliaria are to acute, but we should look forward to find Chenopodium on the other VMS herbal pages. It is very likely that we found it anywhere else, because it is an important plant to the Zuni people, which I believe, I have found in my translation. The leafs of Kalanchoe are very similar, but the flowers absolutely aren´t equal to the VMS plant in my opinion. Chiastophyllum has yellow flower, the VMS flowers are blue / violet. The Sedum flower has a totally different shape. The leafs of Umbilicus looks like trumpets, the VMS plant leafs didn´t do that.

5.)

The drawing of the borage is really very bad in comparison with the other plants in the VMS. But there are too many hints to borage, I would think. @Linda, the Aquilegia has leafs in a shape like a duck´s feet. The leafs of the VMS plant do have non- separated leafs. Yes, the drawing seems to be very bad, but the transcription seems to be also very clear. If it is right, it can only be borage.

6.)

You did not said anything about my idea of folio 3r and that it could be a common polypody there. 

(07-08-2019, 01:55 AM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Linda" pid='29471' dateline='1565122968']

Quote:---------------------------- 1.)

My current fave for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which seems to combine both of your suggestions in that it is both aquatic like Nymphaea and resembles the flowers and leaves of Menyanthaceae.

1.)

Linda, I can go along with your idea of Nymphoides indica. It would fulfill my transcription and the possible translation as Nymphaea alba would do and the picture shows us a white flower with five petals like it is the case with Nymphoides indica.

It doesn't have to be N. indica. There are several other species of Nymphoides that look the same. One in particular grows all over Europe. That's why I said Menyanthese/Villarsia rather than specifically saying N. indica. Even the yellow ones sometimes have fringes (almost any of them will sometimes have fringes).

I've been saying Nymphoides for years (it's quite a good drawing of Nymphoides) but they are all VERY similar, so you can not identify it down to the particular species. Even the North American version looks exactly like Nymphoides indica. There's very little variation in them compared to many other families of plants. So, I say Menyanthese/Villarsia because botanists used to think many of the Menyanthese and Villarsia were the same and because they grow all over the planet. WHICH Nymphoides it is cannot be determined from a drawing. Even a good photo is often not enough. You have to look at this plant through a microscope to distinguish between the American Gulf version and the East Indian version. They are so similar they used to think it was the same plant (both of which look very much like the VMS drawing).

Quote:3.)



The idea, that it takes out the burn of insect bites, and the dragon stands for this, I find really nice. I could imagine this very well. @JKP So we also agree on "plantain"?

No. There is not enough information to say for sure it is plantain. That's why I have a list. There are several other plants that have parallel veins, the have a basal rosette, and that were common in medieval herbals.

Why choose one plant when there are several that match? I don't understand why people do this (and it happens ALL THE TIME). Plantain is PERHAPS the most likely one but it's not the only one, so a list of likely candidates is more appropriate. It might be Hellebore or Dracaena or three other common plants with parallel veins.

Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote:6.)

You did not said anything about my idea of folio 3r and that it could be a common polypody there. 

Sorry i forgot, yes it has single rows of sori on each side but i think there is likely a better match where the fern is more pointy at the top, has wider fronds that overlap, maybe curls at the edges, and has smaller sori


Dont know which this is


Licorice Fern Polypodium glycyrrhiza 


I am not saying any of these are the one, just showing there are many other choices that seem to fit better.

Re JKPs comment about why choose when there are several that match, there can only be one at the top of the list, it doesnt mean there isnt a list, or cant be, if one hasnt compiled a list yet. Need the text to confirm, but i dont know your method so cant comment on that part of it.

I edited a few posts to remove quotes that were several orders of magnitude larger than the reply.

Hi all,

I encourage all to move all discussions to relevant folio threads in the "Imagery" subforum.

This thread was intended as reference-only and would feature only those plants ids on which mnemonics there is more or less consensus (if any).