The Voynich Ninja

JKP's latest You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a paragraph about "short legged men" in the Zodiac central emblems. He also found a number of images which match both the strange proportions of these fellows, and the dress of the crossbowman, to some extent. 

One image I found particularly interesting features a Sagittarius-like man approaching a robed figure. Not the female twin, but a clergymen. 
This looked like the kind of image that was copied, so I dug around a bit and found that it features in texts called Le Songe du Verger: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Pour expliquer ce nom on avance souvent l'hypothèse qu'il renvoie aux conditions dans lesquelles cette œuvre a été inspirée : Évrard endormi dans un verger, aurait vu dans un rêve le roi accompagné du pape, puis un clerc et un chevalier choisis comme avocats par les deux hommes pour débattre amicalement de points litigieux. Finalement le chevalier l'emporte.

In other words, the figures are "a clergyman" and "a knight".

JKP posted an image from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Another manuscript, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (bottom images) is very similar and was also written 1420-1430. It features some fancy ascenders as well.

[attachment=1464]

(JKP, I just noticed that you also posted the Mazarine image but wrote it's from Liber Floridus - I think the wrong image got uploaded by accident).

Apparently the Songe was based on the work of a 14th century lawman from Bologna, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I have not been able to find out yet whether the images originated in Italy or rather in France (likely author: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

So well... Any thoughts on these manuscripts? Or JKP's other examples? Or other examples of short-legged men in skirts?

(05-07-2017, 10:53 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

(JKP, I just noticed that you also posted the Mazarine image but wrote it's from Liber Floridus - I think the wrong image got uploaded by accident).

...

Yes, looks like something went awry. I'll have to get that sorted out. Thanks for the heads-up.

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I notice in the image that you posted bottom-right that the king also has those two "rabbit's-foot" shapes, the two white dangling things. I haven't had a chance to look into them and was wondering what they were. Ermine tassels are longer, thinner and pointier, so it's not ermine (unless it's ermine sewed into pouch shapes) and they're not bells or purses (at least not the conventional kind of purse that was attached to the waistband).

Hi Koen,
I see you previously discussed a similar subject You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

You posted a couple of images from Picatrix crediting Searcher for pointing them out:

It seems that in each of these renditions of the knight, he has a long waist and legs that are short relative to his height.

So is this because the illustrators copied one another, or is there perhaps a description somewhere that invites this kind of depiction of the knight?

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Note the simple plain band on the neckline and the belt on the Picatrix example. This is surprisingly difficult to find in combination with other aspects of the figure's clothing and proportions.

I'm really wondering if the legend of this knight perhaps described him as a dwarf (as they called a person of small stature in those days).

Marco: thanks for linking that image. As I also replied to JKP's blog post, this is still one of my favorite parallels (the top one), though I found it hard to find information about this particular manuscript before.

Hi Koen, I have posted some links about the Krakow Picatrix in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

In 2003, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. published parallels for the Voynich Sagittarius including the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries (Flemish, mid XV Century) and BNF Latin 17294 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Paris 1430-1440).
In the attachment, the first two images are from the Tapestries and the third from the ms (sorry, I couldn't find the exact folio, the ms is huge).

Given how big Voynich heads are, maybe one should compare images from talons to neck. Yet these illustrations seem to me to match the "short legs" (or low-waist) pattern rather well.

Marco: These images are interesting in that they use a different way of drawing the human body than the VM (as you somehwhat indicate yourself, head-to-body ratio is of critical importance). On the other hand, I can only agree that these men appear to have short legs. 

I find it especially clear in the man in the middle picture, the one pointing up. Might this actually be wardrobe-related? That in a certain fashion style, the belt was worn below the waist? A medieval equivalent of "low pants"??

(05-07-2017, 04:18 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco: These images are interesting in that they use a different way of drawing the human body than the VM (as you somehwhat indicate yourself, head-to-body ratio is of critical importance). On the other hand, I can only agree that these men appear to have short legs. 

I find it especially clear in the man in the middle picture, the one pointing up. Might this actually be wardrobe-related? That in a certain fashion style, the belt was worn below the waist? A medieval equivalent of "low pants"??

This seems to me an excellent explanation. The Voynich Sagittarius manages to provide a number of details that match the better quality illustration of the Bréviaire de Salisbury posted by Ellie. E.g.

• the exaggerate volume of the sleeves
  
• the shape of the hat
  
• the "low pants" effect
  

It could be that all these details only remained fashionable for one or two decades. Considering the excellent examples in the first post and in JKP's post, the relevant time frame could be 1420-1440. I guess all these things have been studied by costume / fashion historians and should be documented in books. It's an area I have never seriously explored.

Might the "knights" from the Somnium manuscripts not be the best overall match to the archer's dress so far? Especially the ones from the more original Mazarine MS. Hanging sleeves, peculiar hat extension, shape of the hem of the skirt, "stepping forward" pose...

Might there be a political significance to this dress? The "knight" is defending the king against an advocate of the church. And according to the wiki, Giovanni da Legnano was "the most prominent defender of Urban VI at the outbreak of the Western Schism." This whole context seems like one where an illustrator is likely to pay attention to the specific dress of his figures, and its connotation...

Oh, I couldn't control myself 
Short legs, low belt:

Tall and short:

In point of fact, I think, it is because of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (big top and thin legs) and, maybe, plumpness of those men is one of the reasons of the low belt.
XV century Italian men's costume.

Henry VIII and Edward VI, 16 century: