17-10-2020, 08:58 PM
17-10-2020, 10:18 PM
The first thing to be said is that salamanders do not have long necks, a minor detail that apparently was frequently overlooked. Dragons are better looking anyway.
If it is a salamander, the heraldic interpretations are very limited.
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If it is Francis I of France, then his dates (1494-1547) are well outside the parchment range.
I was happy with the original side sprout off the main root hypothesis. There are two faint lines making a connection, but are they the sides of a shoot or the legs of a bug, something with long legs, like a mayfly?
If this is a reference to the frog of Charlemagne and the salamander of Francis I, then it is one of the more significant clues and also one of the more ambiguous representations and tenuous connections. Just what might be expected from the VMs.
NOTE: I saw an illustration of a knight in a white surcoat with green frogs recently, which I thought I remembered as Charlemagne, but (as usual) can't recover it. Perhaps it was Clovis instead.
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If it is a salamander, the heraldic interpretations are very limited.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
If it is Francis I of France, then his dates (1494-1547) are well outside the parchment range.
I was happy with the original side sprout off the main root hypothesis. There are two faint lines making a connection, but are they the sides of a shoot or the legs of a bug, something with long legs, like a mayfly?
If this is a reference to the frog of Charlemagne and the salamander of Francis I, then it is one of the more significant clues and also one of the more ambiguous representations and tenuous connections. Just what might be expected from the VMs.
NOTE: I saw an illustration of a knight in a white surcoat with green frogs recently, which I thought I remembered as Charlemagne, but (as usual) can't recover it. Perhaps it was Clovis instead.
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18-10-2020, 06:15 AM
Salamanders don't have long necks, but they were drawn and sculpted with long necks, somewhat dragon-like. All four that I linked have long necks.
But they are salamanders (they are labeled as such).
The fire salamander was a popular emblem among the aristocracy (numerous French nobles used it). They are also included in many bestiaries.
It is sometimes posed like the serpent that tempted Eve because it was said to poison fruit if it touched it.
But they are salamanders (they are labeled as such).
The fire salamander was a popular emblem among the aristocracy (numerous French nobles used it). They are also included in many bestiaries.
It is sometimes posed like the serpent that tempted Eve because it was said to poison fruit if it touched it.
18-10-2020, 06:52 AM
18-10-2020, 08:52 PM
Thanks to R Sale for that heraldic input!
18-10-2020, 09:03 PM
For anyone slower than myself, here's the story.
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So it was Clovis. Does it say: "Anglia portat in armiß fine treß..."? Something about frogs. And I loose it after that.
Fortunately, there's this reference: "Top: arms with three toads. According to legend, this was the coat of arms of Clovis, king of the Franks, before his conversion to Christianity. He then replaced them with three irises. Bottom: French Moderne arms with three fleurs-de-lis adopted as the arms of France from 1376 to 1469. From Nicholas Upton's Treatise on Military Arts and Heraldry, 1450, British Library."
It's a reference on Pinterest. Can you believe it? The reference date is 1450 and the history of the armorial insignia is widely known at that time. Note that in the representation of the three frogs insignia, the field is argent.
So a frog is a frog and frogs in triplicate are a potential tie to French history and the king's religious conversion. The next question is whether or not that is some kind of idiosyncratic VMs dragon-salamander hidden in the crease. It does seem to be a trait of the VMs that information that seems to be more significant is also more difficult to tease out, but perhaps there is a point where that goes too far.
While a salamander would push the dates of VMs creation a century after the parchment dates, it does not affect other aspects of VMs investigation. I agree with Rene Z, that VMs Pisces is an important potential starting point. And two things that start there are pairing and heraldic insignia.
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So it was Clovis. Does it say: "Anglia portat in armiß fine treß..."? Something about frogs. And I loose it after that.
Fortunately, there's this reference: "Top: arms with three toads. According to legend, this was the coat of arms of Clovis, king of the Franks, before his conversion to Christianity. He then replaced them with three irises. Bottom: French Moderne arms with three fleurs-de-lis adopted as the arms of France from 1376 to 1469. From Nicholas Upton's Treatise on Military Arts and Heraldry, 1450, British Library."
It's a reference on Pinterest. Can you believe it? The reference date is 1450 and the history of the armorial insignia is widely known at that time. Note that in the representation of the three frogs insignia, the field is argent.
So a frog is a frog and frogs in triplicate are a potential tie to French history and the king's religious conversion. The next question is whether or not that is some kind of idiosyncratic VMs dragon-salamander hidden in the crease. It does seem to be a trait of the VMs that information that seems to be more significant is also more difficult to tease out, but perhaps there is a point where that goes too far.
While a salamander would push the dates of VMs creation a century after the parchment dates, it does not affect other aspects of VMs investigation. I agree with Rene Z, that VMs Pisces is an important potential starting point. And two things that start there are pairing and heraldic insignia.
18-10-2020, 11:59 PM
(18-10-2020, 09:03 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For anyone slower than myself, here's the story.
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So it was Clovis. Does it say: "Anglia portat in armiß fine treß..."? Something about frogs. And I loose it after that.
[Dominus de Botraux in] Anglia portat in armis suis tres bot[r]aces nigros in campo argenteo.
botraces: batrachians I suppose
Anglia: England, some text is missing before. Found it in Google Books: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The legend about Clovis I receiving the new emblem from an angel is, sadly, just a legend. The heraldic emblem "fleur de lys" for the kingdom was not adopted until the 12th century (Louis VII) and, before that, heraldry didn't exist.
19-10-2020, 06:16 AM
nablator,
Thanks for the additional commentary.
Yes, it's a legend. Of course, it's a legend. But it doesn't matter that it's not factual; it depends on what people of the given era accepted as being factual. Many 'legends' were given credence in those earlier times and as investigators we must accept that those legends possess a provisional validity even though we know the facts are contradictory.
Thanks for the additional commentary.
Yes, it's a legend. Of course, it's a legend. But it doesn't matter that it's not factual; it depends on what people of the given era accepted as being factual. Many 'legends' were given credence in those earlier times and as investigators we must accept that those legends possess a provisional validity even though we know the facts are contradictory.
19-10-2020, 08:21 AM
(19-10-2020, 06:16 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, it's a legend. Of course, it's a legend. But it doesn't matter that it's not factual; it depends on what people of the given era accepted as being factual. Many 'legends' were given credence in those earlier times and as investigators we must accept that those legends possess a provisional validity even though we know the facts are contradictory.
Sure. It's the "1376 to 1469" part that seems off. 12th - 19th century would be correct.
19-10-2020, 06:49 PM
The 1376 date marks the end of the use of the semé-de-lys pattern and the change to the three fleur-de-lys pattern. The 1469 date is a change in the achievement, not a change in the shield pattern. <Therefore irrelevant.> [Someone else's cut and paste investigation.]
Here's mine:
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There's another interesting heraldic legend involving Chotard Chateaubriand and the French King Louis IX - that he took a dart for the king (in battle) and afterward changed his heraldic insignia from a red papelonny marked in gold to a golden semé-de-lys on a red field, in contrast to the royal blue, which was a semé-de-lys at that time.
Interesting that the papelonny pattern appears twice in the VMs Zodiac tub patterns - in Pisces and Dark Aries. But no one can name it, when no one knows it. Interesting that during the reign of Louis IX, the pope was in Lyon, and that pope, Innocent IV, was Sinibaldo Fieschi. And there are blue stripes on White Aries.
Here's mine:
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There's another interesting heraldic legend involving Chotard Chateaubriand and the French King Louis IX - that he took a dart for the king (in battle) and afterward changed his heraldic insignia from a red papelonny marked in gold to a golden semé-de-lys on a red field, in contrast to the royal blue, which was a semé-de-lys at that time.
Interesting that the papelonny pattern appears twice in the VMs Zodiac tub patterns - in Pisces and Dark Aries. But no one can name it, when no one knows it. Interesting that during the reign of Louis IX, the pope was in Lyon, and that pope, Innocent IV, was Sinibaldo Fieschi. And there are blue stripes on White Aries.