The Voynich Ninja

[Edit KG: this was originally a reply to this post You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but these posts have been split off by popular demand]

Davidsch,

The detail you describe as a fleur-de-lys is easy to read that way, and at first I thought so too, but such a reading is difficult to maintain because - as as with all emblemata - an interpretation has to be consistent with all other details, and in this case, the figure wears a garment of a cut which combines a neck-band of lighter colour with a side opening which runs close by the right armpit, and which apparently joins with knots, or perhaps frogged buttons (i.e. ones made by knotting cord into a button).  Those things are characteristic of Asian style, and the quarter which the figure occupies appears, again, to be the eastern, or perhaps the north-eastern.  (this assignment after investigating each of the other three in some detail).

Given the dates for the vellum and so forth, I concluded that the dress - including the head-wear - was a reference to the Mongols, (comparative images provided) and thus that the thing which strikes us as being like the European  'fleur-de-lys' wasn't meant for that, but for an emblem used on some coins of the Mongol period, within the same region to which traders and papal emissaries and others went from mainland Europe during the 'Mongol century'.

One commentator even speaks of it (the emblem being a calligraphic version of a tamgar) as looking "Like a graceful fleur-de-lys".

 In writing up this matter, I added an image of that coin and of the costume, including the peculiar head-band, so that readers would see that all the details in that little vignette are telling of time and place.


The coin I illustrated dates to 1252-3 AD.

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David, I was wondering what the figure with the "scepter" would look like without the paint but it's difficult to remove it without losing what's underneath:



I can't tell for certain if it's text, and it almost looks like there's a cross with a hook to the left of it (also not for sure). There might even be text across the midriff, but... it's very hard to tell. The marks on the arms look more like circles, fabric patterns.

JKP,

I make out an Iron cross barely visible.  The text could say, "am" meaning, "I am" a reference to God.

JKP this pollutes the thread a little bit, because it's not a lady with a ring. However, Funny that you come with that image today (The entire presentation on 85r2 has been identified by me today, but want to do some more research first)

I've zoomed in and originally the sweater was full of lines, as well as the arms. That is why i do not think these are letters.
But perhaps there are better quality images. It is not too small to be lettering. Could you start a new thread on it ?

It's on this page  85r2    You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(19-12-2016, 01:00 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP this pollutes the thread a little bit, because it's not a lady with a ring. However, Funny that you come with that image today (The entire presentation on 85r2 has been identified by me today, but want to do some more research first)

I've zoomed in and originally the sweater was full of lines, as well as the arms. That is why i do not think these are letters.
But perhaps there are better quality images. It is not too small to be lettering. Could you start a new thread on it ?

It's on this page  85r2    You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I'm not sure how to do that other asking the moderators if it's possible to duplicate Post #53 (which is what originated the side-thread) and moving Post #59 and Post #65 (and #66) to the same thread, since they are responses to Post #53.

Mods, would it work to split the thread in that way?

I split it like this, and added a link to the other thread in the first post, that should work...

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has always been a symbol for courage, used by kings and armies. It also represents faith, wisdom and chivalry but can also represent kingship and state.
Here it is obviously not an Italian fleur de lys, nor French from let's say 1450. The Voynich fleur-de-lys looks more like two leafs with a flower bud coming out.

fleur de lis, fleur-de-lys


The primarily catholic symbol is used for many things. There are even writers that have traced the symbol into ancient Egypt. In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the fleur de lis, called giglio. The symbol is also used on a compass rose to mark the north direction. And there are many more associations.
The fleur de lis traditionally represents the virtues of perfection, light and life.
Extending as far back as Mesopotamian times, the fleur de lis, or stylized lily flower or iris but has close links with the country of France, and more esoterically, with the Italian city of Florence.

The Florentine fleur de lis is red with the stamens interposed between the petals. Furthermore, the tips of the petals and the stamens form flowers themselves. The French version shows three petals, the central one which is erect, and the other two curving outward and joined by a band, with protruding feet. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The French fleur de lis contains no stamens, unlike the Italian version, and looks more like this picture below, but not quite.
The most ancient variation is the fleur-de-lys 'au pied nourri', i.e. without the lower part, everything under the horizontal bar apparently cut off. Old French also calls this fleur-de-lys 'en lonc' or 'a pié coupé'. Sometimes the lower part is represented but in a triangular shape: it is then called 'au pied posé'

History
While the fleur de lis was sporadically used in Babylonian, Egyptian and Roman architecture, the symbol was first used prominently in 1147 century by French monarch Louis VII.
In 1179, Philippe-Auguste wore a robe of azure semy de lis at his coronation. The first arms of France were "Azure semy de lis Or," or golden fleur de lis strewn on an azure field; however in 1365, Charles VI reduced the number of flowers to three, presumably in deference to the Trinity. The red fleur de lis of the coat of arms of Florence denotes that city, namely during Medici rule.

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The fleur de lis in French history is associated with the conversion of the Frankish king, Clovis, to Christianity in 493. Legend asserts that a lily appeared at his baptism as a gift by the Virgin Mary, who is linked to the flower. Other stories say that Clovis placed the lily in his helmet before his ultimately victory at a decisive battle, after which the fleur de lis became a royal symbol. The name Clovis is also known as "Loys," and therefore "fleur de lis" has been said to be the corruption of "flower of Loys". The Medicis were said to co-opt the existing symbol of Florence by reversing the colors of the flower that were native to that city, from white to red.
As the symbol of the city of Florence, the fleur de lis was found in the currency of Florence, or the fiorino. Beyond Florence in Italy, the doges of Venice and dukes of Parma, and was used in papal crowns adopted the symbol and coats of arms. In France, the fleur de lis is ubiquitous, found not only in connection with the French throne. In French heraldry, it first appears in 1199; in 1211, it appears as an official seal of future Louis VIII. In French communal arms, bearing the fleur de lis was deemed a privilege to specially designated cities granted by the monarch, notwithstanding its prevalent use as arms by other French cities.
There are no coats of arms before 1130-1140.  H. Pinoteau's work of the past 30 years have shed definitive light on the subject: although we have no iconographic testimony of the coat azure, semy of fleur-de-lys or by a king of France before Louis VIII (on a stained glass window in Chartres of 1230; Louis VIII did bear the coat before becoming king, on a seal of 1211)

(18-12-2016, 09:30 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.David, I was wondering what the figure with the "scepter" would look like without the paint but it's difficult to remove it without losing what's underneath:



I can't tell for certain if it's text, and it almost looks like there's a cross with a hook to the left of it (also not for sure). There might even be text across the midriff, but... it's very hard to tell. The marks on the arms look more like circles, fabric patterns.

JKP, thank you very much!
I just was going to start the theme about hidden texts in the VMs, as my site doesn't work. I open this thread and see your find. Great! The notes in your image look like "ar", as for me. Of course, I always check that anyone shows. I took new large scans. So, I made my edition. Without doubt, there are some notes on the chest and on the right hand of the man with the "fleur". It is not impossible, as these notes are similar in size to the text under the figure. 

Chest: a cross-swastica (not usual) and something like "ЗС " or "[i][font=Georgia]ЗЕ "[/i][/font]
[i][font=Georgia][attachment=1004]  [attachment=1005][/i][/font]
Hand: actoз or nitoз, or victoз, or pictoз (actor, nitor, victor, pictor)???
I see no other notes, only these.
Actually, I'm not surprised as the both symbols are present on the other pages, including the Rosettes page. Maybe, exactly this word (...ctor) is on the first page (f1r) in the top right corner, but I'm not sure.

His hand is difficult to interpret, as well.

Is he holding the "scepter"? His hand looks like it's outstretched. Is this because holding things is difficult for the illustrator to draw or is it intentional?


Is the thing emanating from his fingers (like a lightning bolt or "magic spell" in a modern cartoon)? It almost looks like it's pouring out between two of the fingers. I don't know how long ago this kind of iconography originated, but I'm not sure I've seen it in medieval illustrations.

Or... could he be reaching for it rather than holding it? or indicating something "out there" (something of celestial origin).


And is this a he or a she? He seems more male than female until one removes the paint and then a breast is clearly shown. Or maybe the figure is androgynous, as in many ancient drawings, and also some medieval drawings (e.g., constellation Andromeda).


And... I don't know if this has been discussed yet, is there a hierarchy in this circle? Two figures are standing behind single arcs, two are behind double arcs. This one has a double arc. Is he/she more important or more exalted than the two on each side or is the asymmetry an embellishment?

I find this section of the manuscript very hard to interpret in terms of how the image evolved and where and when it's from. These folios have the most medieval air about them, in my opinion, together with the rosettes foldout. I'm not sure of much, so only some loose comments:

- Last time I mentioned this people disagreed, but I insist that he has six fingers.
- I have come to understand that hair style is the best indicator for gender. This is the Voynich male hair style. The breast could be some awkwardly drawn piece of his clothing, or like JKP says some basic Voynich androgyny. It is indeed true that in some Roman era work, for example, it is hard to see the difference between breast and pectoral muscles. Add in a confused copyist and you've got a bunch of men with boobs.
- I'm having a hard time connecting figures like this one to for example Q13. Yes, the style has been equalized, but the way the face is drawn... it still looks and feels different.